Ep 49: Understanding Kratom with Mac Haddow: Science, Politics, and Personal Experience

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This vendor handed me, it was a
little shot of kratom, and he

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said try it.
And so I took and selected down

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and I took a double dose and
didn't know it.

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I mean, I should have only taken
half of it.

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But about 20 minutes later, it
hit me.

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And, you know, I felt this calm
feeling and I felt, you know, at

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the same time a little bit of
energy.

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I thought it was an interesting
experience.

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I'm not prone to, you know, just
taking substances like that.

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I don't even like taking pills,
but this was an interesting

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thing.
Welcome to Kratom Stories, a

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weekly podcast where we share
stories of how this amazing

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plant has changed our lives.
I'm your host, Madeleine Sklar.

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Each week I'll bring you a new
episode featuring interviews

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with experts, advocates, and
everyday people who've

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experienced the benefits of
kratom first hand.

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Join me as we dive deeper into
the world of this botanical

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wonder and discover the amazing
stories behind this incredible

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plant.
The Kratom Stories Podcast is

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presented solely for educational
purposes.

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Neither the podcast nor its host
promote or endorse the use of

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kratom, a substance not yet
regulated or approved by the

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FDA.
The views and opinions expressed

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by guests are theirs alone and
do not necessarily reflect those

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of the host or the podcast.
The content is not intended as a

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substitute for professional
medical advice, diagnosis, or

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treatment.
Always seek the advice of your

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physician or other qualified
healthcare provider with any

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questions regarding the use of
kratom.

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So I'm here with Mack Haddow.
So many people in the kratom

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community know who this is.
He is the face of the American

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Kratom Association.
Mack, thank you so much for

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coming on to the Kratom Stories
podcast.

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I'm glad to do it.
This is a a new kind of

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experience for me because we're
not talking policy, although we

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might, but she's talking about
personal experience as kratom.

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It's great.
Yeah, I know, 'cause like you're

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always, yeah, I mean, you're all
about policy.

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You're, you're the senior fellow
on public policy for the

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American Kratom Association.
You do so much to help us as

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consumers keep legal access to
this plant.

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And I just appreciate all that
you do for all of us.

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So thank you.
Well.

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Thank you.
But yeah, I'm eager to hear your

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kratom journey.
So let's start off with you

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telling us a bit about yourself
and life before you ever heard

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about kratom.
Well, I first got involved in

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the political world as a college
student at Brigham Young

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University when I was growing up
in Pittsburgh, PA.

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My stepfather was an abusive
alcoholic.

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The joke in our family was that
when my mother married and he he

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did not know she had five
children at the time and he

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wasn't a happy camper with any
of us.

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And it's one of those
experiences where as you grow up

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in those kinds of tents
surroundings that you look for

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anchors in your life.
And one of the anchors in in my

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life and my brother's lives was
a two people, Jess and Helen

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Hatch, who were the parents of
Oren Hatch.

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And they had come to Pittsburgh
in seeking work during the

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Depression.
Orrin Hatch's father was a, a

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wood wire and leather metal
lather.

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And so he was just looking for
work.

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And he became sort of the the
key person in the Pittsburgh

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area in bringing the religious
view from Mormonism into that

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area.
And our family had converted to

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Mormonism when I was 10 years
old.

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And so Jess and Helen Hatch were
just like surrogate parents to

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me growing up.
So when I was at school at

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Brigham Young University and
Orrin Hatch announced that he

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was going to run for the United
States Senate, I called him up.

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And I said to Warren, what can I
do to help you?

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And he said, well, the most
important thing is you need to

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arrange meetings with delegates
to the state convention.

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Utah has a convention system for
vetting its candidates.

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They now change that a little
bit.

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So there's a pathway to do
actual signatures and primaries.

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But at the time, it was just the
convention.

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And he said, I really need to
win the convention or at least

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come in second so that I can get
into the primary election

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against a fellow Republican.
There were five Republicans that

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had filed.
And so I was assigned and I took

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on the challenge of doing Utah
County, which is the second

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largest county in Utah.
And it's the area where Brigham

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Young University is located.
And so I started calling, and I

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set up these meetings.
And I would call his campaign

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headquarters and say, I got this
state, this state, this state.

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And every time I called, they
said fine, no problem.

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And I after a while, I started
to wonder what is going on?

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There are 29 counties in Utah.
How in the world can I get every

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date?
That's statistically that's just

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not possible.
And finally, I asked the

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scheduler and he said, well, the
truth is you're the only one

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that's working on this.
We don't get any other contacts

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or calls.
And so and I became friends with

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the scheduler who was retired
Air Force Colonel that knew

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Orrin Hatch from his
neighborhood where they lived.

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And he said to me one day said,
look, I made a commitment to my

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wife two years ago before this
campaign we got underway that I

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was going to take her to Hawaii
on a vacation.

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And I've got to do that or I'm
going to get divorced.

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He said, would you come to the
headquarters and just run the

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scheduling operation for a
couple of weeks?

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And so I agreed to do it.
And the first day I was asked to

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go to the airport to pick up a
consultant from the Republican

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National Committee who was
coming out to evaluate the Hatch

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campaign to see if there was any
possibility that he could win.

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And I picked him up at the
airport and on the way to

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downtown Salt Lake, which is
about a 20 minute drive.

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He said to me, what's your
assessment of the campaign?

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I didn't have any assessment of
the campaign.

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All I saw was negatives.
And I said, well, I can tell you

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what I know and I don't know
much, but this is what I

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learned.
And it doesn't look like there's

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much going on.
And he said, fine, thank you.

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And I picked him up to take him
back at the airport about four

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in the afternoon.
And he got in the car and he

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said, it's a lot worse than you
thought.

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He said, this is a disaster of a
campaign.

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He said Hatch is going to ask
you to drive him to Logan

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tomorrow, which is about two
hours from Salt Lake, north of

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Salt Lake.
He's going to ask you to be his

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new campaign manager, he said,
and you need to tell him no.

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I said.
That's easy.

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First off, I'm in school, in my
senior year of college.

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I don't have time to do this, I
said.

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Secondly, I don't know anything
about politics.

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He said, Ah, you don't need to
know anything about politics.

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You just tell him no.
Because the only way that you

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say yes to him is if he agrees
to fire everybody on his

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campaign staff.
And if he'll do that, then you

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tell him yes, and then I'll help
you.

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I'll give you a road map on how
you can at least make it

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credible, He said.
There's no way Hatch can win.

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None.
But he wants, if he wants to

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have a future in politics, he's
going to have to do the

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following things.
And he kind of laid out the road

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map.
Next day, exactly what he had

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asked me to do happened all the
way up to Logan Hatch beat on

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me.
I said, no, I'm not going to do

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it all the way back to his
house.

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And we sat out in front of his
house for till 2:00 in the

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morning and find that he said,
OK, I've got to do this.

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And I hate doing it.
These are all my friends that

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I've recruited to help on the
campaign.

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But if that's what's going to
happen, it's going to happen.

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So next morning, he gets
everybody there, 12 people in

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the room, very small staff.
And he said, I'm making changes.

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Mack is the new campaign
manager.

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They didn't even know me, by the
way.

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He said, and he'll brief you on
what's going to happen next.

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And he walked out.
So I became, they all quit,

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which I would have done too in
their circumstances.

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I would.
I did.

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You know, this is a college kid
that suddenly gets thrust into

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this.
And some of these people were

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older and more experienced than
that.

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You know, all that.
So I became the campaign

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manager.
And through a variety of very

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interesting circumstances, Orrin
Hatch won the seat in the United

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States Senate, toppling a
incumbent that was called the

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safest seat in the US Senate
that year.

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And Hatch beat him and that
suddenly I was thrust into this

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world of politics.
And my first assignment when I

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got to Washington with him was
he said you need to find a good

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dietary supplement store where I
can get supplements that I used

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to maintain my health and
well-being.

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And he gave me a list and I got
on the Metro in DC and I started

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searching.
I got, you know, I, I found out

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some stores and I went looking
for these supplement stores.

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Most of the things that Hatch
had asked me to make sure I

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could find, I didn't recognize.
I'm a young kid.

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I'm not, I don't need
supplements.

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I don't need this nonsense.
And when I finally found the

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right location, I reported back
to him.

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But what I saw, and Hatch's
commitment to dietary botanical

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supplements was extraordinary
because his view was the light

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years ahead of the FDA's view,
because at that time the FDA was

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demonizing all dietary
supplements.

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And so Hatch started a crusade
against the FDA, and that led

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and culminated in the passage of
the Dietary Supplement Health

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and Education Act in 1994.
Now, by that time I'd left his

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staff.
I had served the term in the

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Utah Legislature myself.
I had become the chief of staff

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at HHS and then I was out doing
advocacy work and I was working

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hard on this Dietary Supplement
Health and Education Act and

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that passed and it rained in the
FDA.

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And so Fast forward to 1996 and
on August the 30th I get a call

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from the American Kratom
Association.

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Susan Ashe was then the
president of the AKA and she

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said we need your help.
The DEA is publishing a notice

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tomorrow that will ban kratom
and make it a Schedule 1

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substance.
And we need desperately to get

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your help.
And we need you to try to lean

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on Senator Hatch to help us as
well.

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I told Susan that no chance.
In my experience in working with

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the FDA, there had never been a
rescission of a Federal Register

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notice to schedule any
substance.

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They've never done it before.
And I said the best chance

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you've got is if they use, which
they typically do, the emergency

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power section, which gives them
a speedier pathway with no

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public comment.
They have 30 days after

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publication, it becomes banned.
I said, but it's only for two

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years.
So you could build the case.

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And she said, well, that we
don't want that.

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But if that's the best you can
do it, that'll get you on board,

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then fine, we'll do that.
And of course, I've told people

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what I underestimated was that
the advocacy community, the

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passionate consumers of kratom
stood up and they were counted

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and they they reached out and
all this.

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Now, that being said, that
wasn't my first experience with

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Kratom.
I already knew what it was

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because in my business, my
brother and a couple of other

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00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,840
guys were partners.
One of the partners had come to

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me about a year before and said
I've got this guy that has hired

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us and I wasn't working on this
account directly at the time.

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It has a product called Kratom
and he really needs to, he's

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working with the FDA.
He's trying to get approval to

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get through the the new dietary
ingredient notification process

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and wants to talk to Orrin
Hatch.

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00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,400
So could you introduce him to
Orrin Hatch, which I did.

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And we went to lunch before the
meeting and this vendor handed

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me, it was a little shot of
kratom.

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And he said try it.
And so I took it and slept it

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down.
And I was, I took a double dose

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00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:01,520
and didn't know it.
I mean, I should have only taken

226
00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,920
half of it.
But about 20 minutes later it

227
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:05,800
hit me.
And, you know, I felt this, this

228
00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,040
calm feeling and I felt, you
know, at the same time a little

229
00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:09,760
bit of energy.
I thought it was an interesting

230
00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:11,880
experience.
I'm not prone to, you know, just

231
00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,680
taking substances like that.
I don't even like taking pills,

232
00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:16,520
but this was an interesting
thing.

233
00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,000
So when we met with Hatch, Hatch
was eager to try it.

234
00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:24,160
And he himself had suffered from
age-related kinds of injuries

235
00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,960
that are arthritis.
And then he had been injured in

236
00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:28,920
a plane crash in St.
George, UT.

237
00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,400
A small plane landed in a very
difficult airport, cracked the

238
00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,680
plane in two, and Hatch had had
serious back problems from it.

239
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,200
And from the moment that he took
kratom in his office the first

240
00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:44,600
time, he became a big advocate
for it and a consumer of it.

241
00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,840
And a year later, when we were
in the midst of this battle, I

242
00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,360
sat in his office when he picked
up the phone and called the DEA

243
00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,440
administrator and said, you will
not schedule Creighton.

244
00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:57,120
I will fight you to the death
on.

245
00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,920
He said, I use it.
It helps me considerably.

246
00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,360
I can imagine it's helping
millions of other people, and

247
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,040
you're not going to do this.
And that, of course, was one of

248
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,840
the elements in the decision
that the DEA administrator made

249
00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,040
in pulling the recommendation
for scheduling.

250
00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,320
So now I have a similar history
of injury.

251
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,040
When I was young and really,
really, really dumb, I was a

252
00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:24,120
motorcycle racer in college and
so I got banged up all the time

253
00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,240
on desert bike racing.
And so I have a very bad hip and

254
00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,520
so I have this chronic pain.
I have a lot of arthritis in

255
00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,640
that hip.
So I was always taking Tylenol

256
00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,960
whenever and particularly when I
play golf or something, when I,

257
00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,040
when I really had to stretch
those muscles and gin joints.

258
00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,600
And so after with Hatches
endorsement, I started using

259
00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,480
Kratom from that day forward.
And I, I usually consume at the

260
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,440
time I was doing it probably
five days a week.

261
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,560
As I've gotten a little older, a
lot older, I'm taking it every

262
00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:51,600
day and I take between 4:00 and
6:00 grams a day.

263
00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,480
It's not a lot, but it helps me
cut the pain and I can function

264
00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,040
fully on it.
And I've been doing that now for

265
00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,200
eight years.
And so it's, and it's really, it

266
00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,680
has given me a perspective about
how it really can help people.

267
00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:08,000
When I hear the personal
testimonies of people, I can

268
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,640
relate to them because I've
experienced it myself.

269
00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,320
And you know, I don't experience
any of the so-called addiction

270
00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,960
or the cravings for it.
I don't have any of those kinds

271
00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,040
of feelings.
I, I have had on occasion to not

272
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,840
use it for a couple of days or
in one case for a week.

273
00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,720
And 1/2 when I went overseas
and, and I just didn't want to

274
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,120
be traveling with him because I
was going to stop me in the

275
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,160
country, Singapore, that it's
not well liked on any drug.

276
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,800
And so, but I've not experienced
any withdrawal symptoms and none

277
00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,600
of the classic the kinds of
experiences some people relate

278
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,040
to with drugs where they get
withdrawals.

279
00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,520
I don't think I'm addicted to
kratom in any way.

280
00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,680
I think my major addiction is
really the caffeine and Diet

281
00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:49,240
Coke, which is my primary
addictive substance.

282
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,600
And the kratomism is not the
same experience at all.

283
00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:57,040
So that's my personal experience
in using kratom and how I got

284
00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,000
introduced to it and how it
really is helping me on a daily

285
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,520
basis as I confront these old
age symptoms and this prior

286
00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,120
injury from my stupid youth.
What a wild story.

287
00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,160
I had no idea you've been a
credium consumer all these

288
00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:12,760
years.
Wow.

289
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,800
And Orrin Hatch too.
I, I, you know, I knew about

290
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,560
the, the Shea Act and, and his
support for dietary supplements.

291
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,440
I did not know he was also a
kratom consumer.

292
00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:26,960
And that really says a lot about
having somebody like him able to

293
00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:31,160
talk to the FDA and, and help
put pressure on when they wanted

294
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,560
to ban this in 2016.
Was this banned that they wanted

295
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,800
to do in 2016?
Did this like just come out of

296
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:38,920
nowhere?
Like this was just something

297
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,640
that there was like, were there
things leading up to them

298
00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,200
wanting to ban Dan Kratom?
Yeah, well, there are two

299
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,560
things.
One is the the FDA has had a

300
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,200
long standing bias, particularly
with one individual who's been

301
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,200
there this whole time for
decades about dietary

302
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,280
supplements and botanical
supplements.

303
00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,720
And if the FDA had their way,
they would repeal to shade today

304
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,560
and they tried to nip around the
edges and use regulatory

305
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,480
authorities granted by DSHEA.
And it will be that's adverse to

306
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,160
the to the Dietary Summit and
the kratom community.

307
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,920
So they have just an inherent
bias against them.

308
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,040
But kratom got on their radar
really when they started to hear

309
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,760
reports that smoke shop owners
were getting creative.

310
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,760
They became alchemists and they
started mixing kratom with other

311
00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,680
things.
And you started to hear reports

312
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,840
of adverse events.
And not surprisingly, the FDA

313
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,920
started to look at it and so did
the DEA.

314
00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:35,000
And then in 2009, the catalyst
was that you had 9 deaths in a

315
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,160
12 month period in Sweden that
were attributed to 1 product, a

316
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,080
kratom, a powder kratom product
called Krypton.

317
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:45,480
And it was sold everywhere in
Europe on the Internet.

318
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,960
And so very popular product.
And 9 deaths in a 12 month

319
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,600
period is a matter of huge
public health concern.

320
00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,720
And it resulted in a number of
European countries banning

321
00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,680
kratom.
The FDA didn't have that

322
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,120
authority on their own as some
other countries do.

323
00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,520
So they initiated an import
alert and they started laying

324
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,040
the foundation for how they
could build the scientific

325
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,800
dossier that would allow them to
schedule kratom.

326
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:12,760
So it took them longer than they
thought.

327
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,840
Now the one thing that is very
disappointing about all of this

328
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:21,080
and it shows the bias of the FDA
against dietary supplements and

329
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,000
botanical supplements is that
when this they identified these

330
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,480
9 deaths.
One of the things that the FDA

331
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,680
has an obligation to do is to
survey all of the peer reviewed

332
00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,960
public literature on any of
substance of which they have

333
00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,200
developed a interest in from a
safety perspective.

334
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,960
So there is a peer reviewed
published article called the

335
00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,400
Cronstand Report that was
published in 2011.

336
00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,840
So he had the deaths in 2009 and
then you had the FDA

337
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,920
implementing their first import
alert in 2012.

338
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,600
So the significant event between
the death reports and their

339
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,000
import alert was the publication
of the Constand report, which

340
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,880
said that the Krypton powdered
kratom product had been

341
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:09,040
adulterated with Odess methyl
tramadol, which is the chemical

342
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,079
used to develop the opioid
tramadol.

343
00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:16,480
It is a powerful painkiller.
It is also highly toxic and

344
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,040
deadly if it's not managed
properly.

345
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,560
And the report from these
scientists was that it was the

346
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,920
introduction of that adultery
that was the likely cause of

347
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,280
those deaths.
The FDA had an obligation to

348
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,560
factor that in, but they ignored
it, completely ignored it.

349
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,000
And it's one thing to say that
they maybe missed it when they

350
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,760
did the import alert.
I don't think that's possible,

351
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,720
but they they could argue that.
But there's no question that

352
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:46,080
when they actually filed the
petition with the DEA to

353
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,800
schedule kratom, they listed
those nine deaths.

354
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,320
So at that point, they had an
absolute affirmative legal

355
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,320
obligation to survey all peer
reviewed public literature, and

356
00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,600
they chose to ignore it.
And they use those nine deaths

357
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,000
as one of their hallmark
examples of how creating was

358
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,040
dangerous.
And under the eight factors,

359
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,480
Factor 6 says that they have to
prove that there's an eminent

360
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,040
threat to the safety of the
American people from the use of

361
00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,640
this substance.
They used those nine guests as

362
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,120
one of the 33 in their initial
recommendation for scheduling.

363
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:20,000
It was disingenuous, it was
dishonest, and yet they did.

364
00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:21,920
And they were not held to
account.

365
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,600
Well, they were eventually, but
they weren't held to account the

366
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,200
way that they should have been
at the time.

367
00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:31,440
And it was only because of the
outcry from the 23,000 people

368
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,440
that eventually got their
comments on the record that they

369
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,960
were calling in advance of that,
the DEA public affairs officer

370
00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,760
told me at the end of September.
And the deadline was it was

371
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,800
going to and take effect
September 30th after the 30 days

372
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,520
of the publication.
He said that we got more calls

373
00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:50,160
on Kratom than we had on any
other scheduling recommendation

374
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,160
in the past.
And so it he said it was

375
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,520
thousands of calls.
He was quoted later saying 6000

376
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,280
calls.
That's a significant number.

377
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:02,320
And then you had 23,232 comments
submitted when the when the DEO

378
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:06,320
opened up their comment period
and you had 147,000 petition

379
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,960
signatures on the White House's
We the People website petition

380
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,840
platform.
That was amazing and all of

381
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:14,720
that.
And you would think that the FDA

382
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,320
would say, you know what, we
need to look at this.

383
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,040
We need to examine whether this
is the right thing to do or not.

384
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,080
But they didn't care.
And it's largely because of one

385
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:27,760
guy at the FDA who remains there
to this day, who leads this war

386
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:29,440
on predom.
And he's influential.

387
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,280
He obviously misled Scott
Gottlieb when he became the FDA

388
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,240
commissioner and he's misleading
Commissioner Caleb today.

389
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,360
And yet he gets away with it.
And it's a tragic, and that's in

390
00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:43,400
it from that standpoint.
Wow, it's so disappointing to

391
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,840
hear that that like one person
there, you know, it is the one

392
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,560
that is trying to keep us from
having legal access to this plan

393
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,960
is it's helping millions of
people around the US.

394
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,160
It's just crazy.
You know, when I saw the

395
00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,160
documentary A Leap of Faith, you
know, I discovered Kramer in

396
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,320
2019.
So all this stuff y'all did

397
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,640
prior, it's amazing to learn
about it.

398
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,040
And so I learned a lot about it
in the documentary Leap of

399
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,240
Faith.
And to see that Chris Bell went

400
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,880
on Joe Rogan's podcast and that
prompted a lot of people to get

401
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,760
active and to reach out and say
please don't ban this.

402
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,880
Do you think that helped a lot
with all of those calls and in

403
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,000
2016 to help keep it from
getting banned?

404
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,000
What did that play a big role in
it, you think?

405
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,640
There's no question that the
community, the advocacy

406
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:33,240
community, consumers rallied.
And I think it was a combination

407
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,000
of that kind of influencer that
was feeding into it.

408
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,080
I think that something that
happened at that time with the

409
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,560
vendor community where they
rallied, they were putting up

410
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,800
handmade signs on their cash
registers telling people to

411
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,560
reach out to the DEA and oppose
this.

412
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,160
You saw this.
I call it an outcry.

413
00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:57,720
It was a passionate outcry from
consumers who were saying a very

414
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,480
simple message, this is helping
me, it's not hurting me, This is

415
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,840
saving my life.
I'm not dying.

416
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,800
And it's that kind of thing when
you look at the options.

417
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:12,040
And the theme of that messaging
resonates to this day with the

418
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,040
National Institutes of Drug
Abuse Director Nora Volkow.

419
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,200
That's what she says.
This is a valuable, a

420
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,200
potentially valuable harm
reduction tool in our war

421
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,120
against the opioid crisis.
Why wouldn't we let people have

422
00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:28,520
access to a product that
otherwise they're trapped in the

423
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:33,560
addictions and the actual risk
of death because they are using

424
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,760
opioids?
And that's exactly the message

425
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,400
that the assistant secretary for
Health, Brett Shaw said when he

426
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,920
issued his withdrawal letter,
which I think is the Bible for

427
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,880
any crate of advocate to go read
that because he said that not

428
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,960
only was the evidence and data
that the FDA provided

429
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,560
embarrassingly poor, but then
the the phrase it's often

430
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,400
overlooked and a failure to
consider the overall public

431
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,000
health.
This is about a battle that we

432
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,040
have with people that are
entrapped in this opioid crisis

433
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,160
who are dying.
And we have evidence that proves

434
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,120
that people are able to not even
go down that path because

435
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:12,200
they're managing their pain with
kratom or they're able to wean

436
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,880
off of those dangerously
addictive and potentially deadly

437
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,600
opioid products with using
kratom, not the kratom as an

438
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,880
opioid.
Kratom doesn't have the same

439
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,280
effects.
Opioids are essential to the

440
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,440
management of pain for many
people.

441
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,720
But when you're addicted to them
and you're not man in your pain

442
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,080
anymore, you are fighting a full
blown addiction that traps you

443
00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:36,440
into a very dangerous situation,
then it's got to stop.

444
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,360
And that's what I think Doctor
Zuwa was recognizing that there

445
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:42,400
are people out there that are
struggling that don't have

446
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,560
access to traditional
treatments.

447
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,320
When I talked to Doctor Jawah
and thanked him when I found out

448
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,320
about his withdrawal letter, he
said to me, he said, Mac, he

449
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,000
said I am not a kratom advocate.
He said, I don't know whether

450
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,600
kratom is good or bad.
I have no idea.

451
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,320
He said I tended to agree with
the FDA when I first heard about

452
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:00,920
it because they're smart and
they know what they're doing.

453
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,200
He said, but in this case, the
FDA was wrong.

454
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,000
He said, I'm an advocate for
good science and I can recognize

455
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,720
bad science when I see it.
And that's what I saw in the

456
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:13,480
evidence and data that was
presented by the FDA in an

457
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,520
attempt to do one of the most
monumental decisions under the

458
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,200
Controlled Substances Act, the
death penalty under a schedule

459
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,600
one for a substance like kratom.
He said it made no sense to him.

460
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:28,640
So that's where we were in 2016.
You would think that the FDA

461
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:34,200
would recognize that criticism
and self examine themselves and

462
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,840
try to figure out how they can
properly regulate.

463
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,920
They refuse to.
They still want to ban it, and

464
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,120
they persist in that to this
day, despite the many, many

465
00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:46,800
setbacks that they have, even by
their own scientific research

466
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,800
and even when they are called
out by a federal judge.

467
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,360
They just did it earlier this
year saying show me the

468
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:55,960
evidence, and they refuse to
show up to do that.

469
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,520
The FDA is so wrong on the
science that it's embarrassing.

470
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,640
And they should stand down and
they should find a way to

471
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,320
regulate this product so that it
really, truly does protect the

472
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,000
American people.
Agreed.

473
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,800
As a regular daily kratom
consumer, I I would love to see

474
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,520
regulations.
I would love to see the KCPA all

475
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,880
across the US.
You know it, it is in my state

476
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,480
of Texas, which I really
appreciate as a consumer.

477
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,320
I would love to see this for
everyone because we want to know

478
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,720
what we're getting is safe and
in following the guidelines of

479
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,600
of what is safe kratom.
Absolutely.

480
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,520
And and there's a pathway to do
that.

481
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,600
The FDA doesn't have to take
this regulatory harsh pathway

482
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,160
that they're taking.
It's just ingrained in them.

483
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,720
Their DNA is that they are going
to fight against any product

484
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,520
that they believe should be a
drug.

485
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,840
And they know that for kratom,
that's not possible unless the

486
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:53,160
molecule or the alkaloid is
converted into a chemical

487
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,640
version of it, which can then be
patented because they know the

488
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,800
kratom is not patentable and
there's no interest by anyone in

489
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,880
the pharma community.
But for changing the alkaloid

490
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,600
and and, you know, synthesizing
it into a dose level of kratom

491
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,960
that would have a much more
powerful effect for a

492
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,920
therapeutic benefit.
The FDA just doesn't, they don't

493
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,120
believe in dietary supplements.
They don't believe in botanical

494
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:18,720
supplements.
And in fact, they hate them.

495
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,920
And kratom is just their cause
dejour today that we need to

496
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,720
fight back on.
And I think I see a pathway for

497
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,880
the future which they're going
to get overwhelmed by their own

498
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,560
ineptitude on this issue, just
like they did themselves in on

499
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,160
dietary supplements in general.
Well, I think it helps

500
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,800
tremendously knowing that we
have you on our side, Mac, as a

501
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:43,480
fellow kratom consumer who has
amazing influence in DC, who

502
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,320
gets across all over the US,
speaking with all these

503
00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:50,920
potential bands that come up, it
seems like almost every day

504
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,920
you're like traveling, you're
somewhere, you're popping up in

505
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,720
a live stream or talking about
it, letting us in a webinar,

506
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,280
letting us know what's going on.
I'm just I never was that

507
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,440
involved in politics but once I
started as a kratom consumer in

508
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:09,120
2019 join the American Crime
Association like right away and

509
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:13,440
have been blown away at how much
goes on in government all the

510
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,000
time when it comes to this plant
is mind blowing.

511
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,760
Yeah, it truly is.
And it's fascinating to see the

512
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,800
evolution of the understanding
of politicians and regulators

513
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,400
about kratom because that big
hill to climb is when the FDA

514
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,280
says something's bad, it must be
true.

515
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,600
We should have the faith in the
FDA to do the right thing all of

516
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,840
the time.
Unfortunately, we can't.

517
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:36,800
This isn't the first time
they've made a mistake.

518
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,720
It just happens to be the the
one that's most important to us

519
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,400
right now.
But the bottom line is that the

520
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,520
FDA has an affirmative statutory
obligation to tell the truth and

521
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:47,720
they're not doing that right
now.

522
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,840
The perfect example is to look
at the FDA and kratom web page

523
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,440
that's up on their website right
now.

524
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,440
They declare on that website,
and it is the basis for actions

525
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,920
by regulators around the
country, including in this in

526
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,720
the state of Ohio, in state of
Washington and New Mexico.

527
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,560
It's growing because they look
at that website and it says that

528
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,040
no kratom product is allowed for
sale that's formulated or

529
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,280
treated as.
And then they list a whole bunch

530
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,240
of jargon that makes people
believe that that must mean all

531
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,440
kratom is illegal and it does
not.

532
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,760
But most importantly, the FDA's
obligation to tell the truth on

533
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,040
it.
It has a an important guardrail.

534
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,800
And that is that in order to
make that declaration, they are

535
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,920
required under the under the
statutes that they have to go

536
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:38,400
through the Administrative
Procedures Act.

537
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,840
They have to go through
rulemaking, which allows for

538
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,680
public comment.
It would allow for scientists to

539
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,560
step up and say, oh, you're
wrong on this or you're right,

540
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,520
depending on the perspective.
It would require public comment

541
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,280
to be able to say, here's the
consumer experience that I have

542
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,200
that you need to listen to.
They did not do any of that.

543
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,800
And yet they're taking this
affirmative stance against

544
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,000
kratom, saying that it's illegal
for sale in the United States.

545
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,880
And unfortunately, some of the
local jurisdictions are getting

546
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,520
duped by it.
I just got notice about one over

547
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,200
the weekend in Albuquerque, NM,
where a local health authority

548
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:17,120
came in and relied upon the
FDA's position and claiming the

549
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:20,120
kratom is not legal for sale.
What's happening in Las Vegas

550
00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:22,840
right now?
There were representatives and

551
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,240
investigators from the Southern
Nevada Health District that went

552
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,840
to a trade show in Las Vegas
over the weekend and shut down 5

553
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:32,320
kratom booths at that trade
show.

554
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,200
The trade show business is huge
in Las Vegas and they're now

555
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,360
interfering with that business.
And so I think that's going to

556
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,760
cause an outcry from some of the
people at the Chamber of

557
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,200
Commerce and others who are very
concerned that they're just

558
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,560
overreacting.
And they cite the FDA.

559
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,720
The Ohio Department of
Agriculture did the same thing.

560
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:55,120
This is a pernicious outcome of
a policy that is driven by the

561
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,080
bias of the FDA, not facts, not
any evidence, because we already

562
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,720
know the evidence is not there.
And they cannot even prove their

563
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,880
claim that it's dangerous in a
court of law.

564
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:05,720
They just like to bluster their
way through.

565
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,760
So the FDA has got to be held
accountable going forward

566
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,240
because our lives, our lives are
the ones that are in the

567
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,240
balance.
They take this away.

568
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,880
And if they're able to
successfully ban it from the

569
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,120
marketplace, where do people go?
It's what Doctor Zhua said.

570
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,640
They're going to go to more
harmful, potentially more highly

571
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,640
addictive and dangerous products
in order to manage acute and

572
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,560
chronic pain.
There's no excuse for that.

573
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,440
And we hear voices like that,
those in the military that are

574
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,920
saying kratom has saved my life
to me when I was when I was

575
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,720
under the VA scare and I was
addicted to opioids and it was

576
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,040
ruining my life.
We see one after another of

577
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:42,800
those people that that are doing
that.

578
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,520
And then you have Congressman
Jack Bergman, who speaks up for

579
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,360
veterans as a former Lieutenant
General in the Marine Corps.

580
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,240
And he's passionate about this.
And he says the FDA has got to

581
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,160
come around.
And he points to not just

582
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,080
kratom, but it's psilocybin
where they're proven benefits.

583
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,360
They're available to veterans
are suffering from PTSD and

584
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:00,720
depression.
That's helping them.

585
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,200
And when you see the suicide
problem among our veterans,

586
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,320
because they're struggling with
these issues that they acquired

587
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,960
as a as a condition of their
service, we should be doing

588
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,120
everything we can to help them.
And when you see the potential

589
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,880
value that psilocybin can have
in that area, the FDA ought to

590
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,240
be leading the charge.
And by the way, they're better

591
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,520
on psilocybin.
They are kratom, by the way, but

592
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,040
they're still not there on
either one of them.

593
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,080
And that's why we need to keep
this fight going and we need to

594
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,280
win in order to protect
consumers.

595
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,280
We really do.
Do you feel like, I mean, for

596
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,960
many of us kratom advocates, we
feel like as Big Pharma that is

597
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:42,120
in the mix somehow working with
the FDACDC, all of them to like,

598
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:47,160
no, don't let this amazing
plant, you know, remain as is

599
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,920
and helping all these people
because it's keeping us from,

600
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,240
you know, being in the big
pharma and, you know, having all

601
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,280
these high-powered opioids,
which I took for nine years for

602
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,280
my chronic pain, I would much
rather consume kratom, which is

603
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,680
just a plant.
But I don't know, you're so

604
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,120
involved with all of this stuff.
A lot of us just kind of

605
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,800
speculate that Big Pharma has
got to be somehow meddling in

606
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,600
all of this.
Well, this is a complicated

607
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,480
issue, but here's here's what we
know.

608
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:18,560
There certainly is an incentive
at the FDA to focus on products

609
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,520
for which they receive user
fees.

610
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,400
When the Prescription Drug User
Fee Act was first passed, it was

611
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,920
intended that it would fill the
gap of being able to fund

612
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,440
resources in terms of equipment
and new technology and people to

613
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,840
run it.
And it was estimated that user

614
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,800
fees for prescription drugs
would account for about 9% of

615
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,560
the review budgets of of Cedar,
which is the Center for Drug

616
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,840
Evaluation and Research.
Today, it's over 70%.

617
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,320
So if you are sitting out there
as a, you know, staffer at the

618
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,600
FDA and you're saying, hey, I'm
stressed in my job, we need more

619
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,400
people, we need more equipment,
we need new technology.

620
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,800
Well, the pathway to that is
increasing user fees and getting

621
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,040
it above where it is right now
is a little bit impossible.

622
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,360
But expanding the products that
can contribute is a whole

623
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,760
different bag, right?
So that's what they want.

624
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,600
And so I think there's an
incentive by the regulators at

625
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,480
the FDA to say, well, let's
increase the pool of those

626
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,240
people or products that are
coming onto the marketplace to

627
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,520
pay us the user fee.
So that's one issue.

628
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,760
The second issue, I think that
it really is pernicious, but

629
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,080
it's there is that they're the
incentives are all on their head

630
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,640
when it comes not just the
financing of the way the FDA

631
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,160
does drug evaluations and
research, but it's also the

632
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,600
companies that are involved in
pain management.

633
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,360
There is no question that they
see kratom as a threat to their

634
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,960
marketplace.
And you've got powerful forces

635
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,480
that are that are crunching
them.

636
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,680
You've got the opioid
prescription restrictions that

637
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,400
everyone believes should have
been put in place.

638
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,960
And government like it typically
does overreaction.

639
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,920
Now the pendulum has come from
the door wide open for opioids

640
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:55,720
under Scott Gottlieb, by the
way.

641
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,840
And now it's swung back where
they don't have the prescribing

642
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,520
authority for physicians to be
adequate to meet the needs of

643
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,360
people in the pain population.
So they've gone way too far.

644
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,080
And this is the way government
reacts, right?

645
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,000
And you've got these companies
out there that see a restricted

646
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,920
marketplace because they're not
allowed to prescribe these

647
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,000
medications.
And then when they see a product

648
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,200
like kratom that is a direct
competitor to the patient

649
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,080
population, they're going to be
down on kratom.

650
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,640
That's not all pharma.
That's just those companies that

651
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,760
are in this cash game, right?
And by the way, we're not immune

652
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:27,640
to it.
I see this happening right now

653
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,560
in the kratom world.
You have people in the kratom

654
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,680
world that have products that
they want to have preserved in

655
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,840
the marketplace, but want to,
they want to get rid of

656
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,000
competing products that are not
their same product formulation.

657
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,560
And that's happening right right
now as we sit here today.

658
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,840
I was fighting it this morning
with a vendor who's just hell

659
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,640
bent to eliminate his
competition and he uses every

660
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,800
ruse that he can under the sun.
He's now his latest thing is,

661
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,240
oh, we should eliminate all
products that have any

662
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,120
attraction to children.
His definition of what's

663
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,680
attractive to children is is
completely contrary to what the

664
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,440
the Federal Trade Commission and
the the consumer products

665
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,880
division has for what they
qualify as children's products.

666
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,280
But if you package your product
and you have any logo that is

667
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,800
vaguely resembles an animated
character or a cartoonist

668
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,880
character, then you're out.
If you use a color on the

669
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,600
packaging that might be
attractive to children, you're

670
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,040
out.
This is the kind of nonsense

671
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,880
that we get involved in, and
it's all competition, and that's

672
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,560
unfortunate.
So we see this where the a

673
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,520
couple of the big pain
management companies that are

674
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,920
trying to restrict competition
in the marketplace, we're seeing

675
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:33,560
in our own house.
And that's got to end.

676
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,040
It's got it's simply, we've just
got to turn our backs to that

677
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,920
and say enough of your nonsense.
We're not going to tolerate it

678
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,040
by the by the big pharma
companies that are in the pain

679
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:42,760
management business and we're
not going to tolerate it with

680
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,440
creating companies.
They just want to eliminate

681
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,159
competition because there's one
thing that a consumer should

682
00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:49,520
have choices.
As long as that product is

683
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,960
formulated safely, as long as
it's labeled correctly with

684
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,320
directions for use, that's what
we should be doing.

685
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,800
And the idea that we let a
company decide that who the

686
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,280
winners and losers are, using
legislation to try to do it is

687
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,160
just is ridiculous.
And I think that's our next

688
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,720
battle.
Do we have to add to the the

689
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:11,040
battlefront as we go forward in
2025 when we're working in these

690
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,240
states?
We saw what was proposed in the

691
00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:17,000
state of California by the
Global Kratom Coalition.

692
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:21,840
They had a bill that drove a
number for enforcement that

693
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,200
would have required for a
registration of a kratom product

694
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:30,040
at 113, $1000 for the first year
and $83,000 every year

695
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,040
thereafter.
Now that eliminates all the

696
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,440
small to mid sized businesses.
And by the way, for contrast,

697
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,120
the state of Utah, first state
that passed the Credit and

698
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,160
Consumer Protection Act has a
product registration fee of

699
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,960
$260.00.
So where does that come from?

700
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,320
Except that they had the most
onerous regulations known to man

701
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,000
embedded in that bill.
And it's largely why you're

702
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,920
seeing the internal civil war
that's developed in the in the

703
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,520
industry here.
Because I went out, I had the

704
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,840
gall to go out and and testify
to the Senate Appropriations

705
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,400
Committee in the California and
I told them this is going to

706
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,240
decimate the workplace.
You're going to you're going to

707
00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:06,600
restrict product availability,
you're going to destroy

708
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,920
innovation.
You are going to open this

709
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,480
marketplace to one or two
products and that's it.

710
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,200
And you will not allow or serve
the consumers to have access to

711
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,200
products that are helping them.
And and it's all about, Oh well,

712
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,800
I want just a powdered kratom
product and a low MIT content

713
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,000
and not any of these extracts.
And they make extracts the evil

714
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,720
a product line, the good is
extracts have a standardized

715
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:31,120
dosing form and if they're
properly extracted, where you

716
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,640
can't artificially enhance the
alkaloids power beyond what the

717
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,800
the food grade solvents that are
approved by the FDA allow, which

718
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,480
we do for coffee, we do for all
kinds of products.

719
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,960
We consume extract products
every day.

720
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,800
And yet global credit coalition
wanted to eliminate those.

721
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,440
So that's the tragedy of the
internal battle that we have

722
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,960
because it the consumers are the
losers and when this kind of

723
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:54,680
thing happens.
And so as I say, it's a new

724
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:56,800
battlefront we've had to open
up, but we're to do it.

725
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,320
We're going to fight tooth and
nail because the one thing that

726
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,040
we believe in is that consumers
ought to have access to properly

727
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,840
manufactured, properly labeled
products where they can make a

728
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,080
choice.
And that it should be at a price

729
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:09,560
point that's not going to kill
them.

730
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,280
And that's where they can't buy
it.

731
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,480
And they literally could kill
them in that, in that regard,

732
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,040
because some people desperately
need access to these kratom

733
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,800
products.
And not everybody, not everybody

734
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,400
is going to be helped by a
Metrogen and content product

735
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,160
that said 40 milligrams.
We did a survey, we have kratom

736
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,280
vendors and we have over 10
million servings and we found

737
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,520
that the sweet spot where there
are no adverse events reported

738
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,760
is between 160 and 320
milligrams per day.

739
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,240
Now how, how can you justify
saying we're going to limit the

740
00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:43,200
marketplace to only our low MIT
content products?

741
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:46,560
And and you know, that's fine by
the way, for them to do that,

742
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:48,200
but they can't eliminate their
competition.

743
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,880
I believe that the future
marketplace of Kratom, when we

744
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,080
get the FDA back in the box and
we get them properly regulated

745
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,640
Kratom, I think that they'll be
a dramatic expansion of kratom's

746
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,560
product lines in America.
And you're going to see those

747
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,040
low MIT content products being
marketed in Whole Foods because

748
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,920
that's all some people need.
And it will appeal to the quote

749
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,480
soccer moms in the world.
I believe in that.

750
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,080
But I don't think that you
cannibalize the rest of the

751
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,600
industry because that's what you
want to sell, because it's your

752
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,360
product.
And that's the, the real

753
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,440
struggle that I have with
accepting this idea that we can

754
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,400
pick winners and losers by
legislation.

755
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,640
Let's pick it by good science.
Let's pick it by properly

756
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,240
manufactured products.
Let's pick it by properly

757
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:31,520
labeled products so that the
serving size are clearly

758
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,360
identified.
And the obligation to convey

759
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,920
that information on safety is
the manufacturer's obligation,

760
00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:39,840
because that's what the federal
law says.

761
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,960
If you have a reasonable basis
on the safety of your product

762
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,280
under the conditions of use
prescribed on the label, then

763
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,400
you're good.
And, and why should we be the

764
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:49,640
ones to interfere with that?
Because.

765
00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:52,720
Because it's a competitive
advantage for one manufacturer

766
00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:55,160
over another.
It's why y'all have my full

767
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,400
support of the American KREM
Association because y'all are

768
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,640
doing things right and I
appreciate all that effort.

769
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,440
And while I personally only
consume the whole leaf kratom

770
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,600
powder, I have no need for the
extracts.

771
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,080
I do believe that they do have
their place for people it, you

772
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,600
know, in some situations,
especially somebody that that's

773
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,240
consume kratom, they understand
it and and I'm totally fine with

774
00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:19,960
that.
But I just don't like the idea

775
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,920
that there's all this division
that's been happening because

776
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,040
you got this other group just
trying to make radical changes

777
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,440
that don't benefit the consumers
overall.

778
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:31,080
That's a problem.
You know, it's interesting

779
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:35,240
because one of the things that
we, I thought we agreed on was 7

780
00:39:35,240 --> 00:39:38,920
OH products because those
products are potentially far

781
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,240
more dangerous.
And here we are in a situation

782
00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:44,040
where there's no way to
eliminate them.

783
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,880
Because if you have the standard
that the federal government

784
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,560
requires, they should be allowed
to be in the marketplace if, if

785
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,360
the science proves it, and
that's a big if.

786
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,600
And if the labeling is
sufficient to protect consumers.

787
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,560
It's the same way that Kaaba
Kratin products get on the

788
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,760
marketplace because there's no
peer review publicly public

789
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:02,960
literature that says those that
combination of products is safe.

790
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,960
I asked the question, I got
rebuked on even getting that

791
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,240
information and here's the
critical problem.

792
00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:11,560
When we confront that issue, how
do we decide what the fair

793
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,080
marketplace evaluation of the
safety of these products is?

794
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,120
It should not be because I don't
like it.

795
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,440
So what we did is we went to the
seven O 8 people and said our

796
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,800
big problem here is you're
calling it kratom because

797
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,600
there's the consumer should know
this is not a kratom product.

798
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,960
So we struck an agreement that
this heart group that represents

799
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,080
a significant percentage of the
70 H community agreed that they

800
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,360
will no longer market their
products as kratom products.

801
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,880
That was a significant step.
That's what the scientists have

802
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:41,640
been telling us.
You can't let them call it a

803
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,720
kratom product.
We do that and suddenly it's

804
00:40:43,720 --> 00:40:46,640
like we shot our mother because
the Global Kratom Coalition, I

805
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,000
said, oh, my goodness.
I mean, what a terrible decision

806
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:50,040
that was.
Well, you know what?

807
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,560
I think it was a decision that
we got to 1st and they didn't.

808
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,440
And that's why they demonized it
that hard because we agree.

809
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,200
We agree on the fundamentals,
and yet it wasn't good enough.

810
00:40:58,200 --> 00:40:59,960
It wasn't fun.
Yeah, we didn't give far enough

811
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:02,920
into it the way that they wanted
to or the way that they would

812
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,120
have done it.
Not a perfect solution because

813
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,080
the perfect solution is for
there to be well developed

814
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:12,000
science that would document in
human studies, not just on an in

815
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:13,840
vitro with the animal studies,
none of that.

816
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:15,920
We need to have good science
that's robust.

817
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,280
And until then, if a company has
that prerequisite that the

818
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,680
federal standard allows, which
is why we have, as I said,

819
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,240
copacrating products, If you
have the science and you have

820
00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:26,280
conditions of use on labeling,
then you should be allowed in

821
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,520
the marketplace until the
documented adverse events you

822
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:31,640
off the market.
And Chris McCurdy said something

823
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,040
fascinating in our congressional
briefing.

824
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,120
And at the end of his statement,
he said that the forensics labs

825
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:41,440
in America do not test for the
difference between Metrogeny and

826
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,320
seven hydroxymetrogeny or
spiciosalatine or any of the

827
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,600
other subalkaloids that are
enhanced and concentrated.

828
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,240
So we don't know what those
deaths really are.

829
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,520
That's significant.
And I that I learned something

830
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:56,040
that that day when I heard that.
And so we're actively looking at

831
00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,040
how we can promote better
standards for these and six labs

832
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,360
to make sure we can
differentiate what the content

833
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,400
of those products really are.
That would be amazing.

834
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,800
Would love to see that happen
for sure.

835
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:09,760
I know we got people listening
to this going.

836
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:11,760
I didn't even really know much
about American Crane

837
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:13,560
Association.
We have a lot of people that are

838
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,960
newer to kratom in our
community.

839
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,800
How can people get involved?
You know, luckily for me, I

840
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,560
discovered you guys very early
on in my cranium journey,

841
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,360
probably through a Google
search, I imagine surprisingly.

842
00:42:25,720 --> 00:42:27,760
But I was like, oh, there's an
advocacy group.

843
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:29,600
This is awesome.
And I immediately joined and

844
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,960
I've been getting the emails
ever since in 2019 all the way

845
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,440
to now.
And it's how I stay informed of

846
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,240
all the stuff that goes on in
this community, especially all

847
00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:41,160
the legal issues.
And it's what got me to come out

848
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,520
to Washington, DC last year when
y'all had the big congressional

849
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,160
briefing on Capitol Hill, which
was amazing, amazing to come

850
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:51,480
meet you in person, other kratom
vendors, other researchers, as

851
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,360
well as fellow advocates.
And we have such a strong

852
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,080
community here.
But it was all because I

853
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,480
discovered American KREM
Association.

854
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,520
So for those are not as familiar
with, I'm sure they are now

855
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,040
after listening to you because I
mean, you're explaining so much

856
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:07,800
of what y'all do, but how can
people get involved?

857
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,480
They're listening that really
have no idea they could be

858
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,040
involved.
Well, thank you for that

859
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,520
question because we need every
kratom consumer to stand up.

860
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,200
We're seeing the challenge that
the FDA is now initiating at the

861
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,160
local level.
We're seeing more and more of

862
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,960
these bans pop up and everybody
citing the FDA.

863
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,880
And it's clear that the FDA is
pumping that disinformation

864
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:28,800
campaign out there.
They have allies.

865
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,840
They've got the trial attorneys
that are doing the same thing

866
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:32,280
and the creating danger
awareness group.

867
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,480
And you know, they're
weaponizing their grief.

868
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,960
All of us feel great empathy for
anyone who's lost a loved one.

869
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,760
But the bottom line, it should
be the truth that is based on

870
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,760
what their advocacy is.
And I suspect, and I know in

871
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,800
many cases that the trial
attorneys of LED these families

872
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:48,920
down the Primrose path to look
for the payday.

873
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,560
And there really isn't what
they're claiming, but they're

874
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,640
certainly, it's tragic and and I
get that, but you can't

875
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,280
weaponize your grief to the
point where you're just

876
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,200
spreading disinformation.
So we need kratom consumers to

877
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,800
stand up in these local
communities more now than ever.

878
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,800
You can go to americankratom.org
and you can just sign up.

879
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,400
Go to protectkratom.org and you
can sign up.

880
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,240
We're always looking for those
new voices, bodies to fill seats

881
00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:15,120
to stand up before a microphone.
And by the way, I know that's

882
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,960
hard.
I've sat and watched hundreds

883
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,720
and hundreds of people stand
before a microphone and I can,

884
00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:23,080
and I'm sitting behind them and
I can see their knees shaking

885
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,320
and I can see that they're
terrified at this.

886
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,040
But those powerful testimonies
that come through because they

887
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,040
are obviously uncomfortable
doing it, but yet willing to

888
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,840
share it with public officials,
it makes a huge difference.

889
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:39,000
I can talk policy all day long
and I will be countering against

890
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:43,200
what the public official was
looking at on his iPad on, you

891
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,560
know, Googling the kratom horror
show on Google.

892
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,960
Nothing, nothing can replace
that consumer standing up and

893
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,000
saying this is how it's impacted
my life and how it saved my

894
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:55,520
life.
It's helped me, It's got me back

895
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:57,920
into society.
And I hear so many of those

896
00:44:57,920 --> 00:44:59,920
stories.
So we need every kratom

897
00:44:59,920 --> 00:45:01,520
advocate.
We need to set aside our

898
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,320
differences.
And I know that there are people

899
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,520
that say, oh, the AKA should do
things differently.

900
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,080
We're not perfect.
We've made mistakes.

901
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,800
I wish I could take back a
couple of decisions that we made

902
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,200
early on and they certainly were
trying.

903
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,880
And we may not in every
implementation of decisions or

904
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,800
even well-intentioned may not be
as good at as we need to be, but

905
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,760
we'll overcome that with voice.
People that stand up, willing to

906
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,680
set aside the petty differences
and let's really, let's really

907
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:25,800
do the right thing for one
another.

908
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,920
I think that's the key.
Absolutely.

909
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,920
Well, it's just amazing all the
stuff y'all do.

910
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,920
And as a consumer, I appreciate
it and I always do everything I

911
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,400
can to help.
Always sharing my testimony

912
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,960
wherever people are directing us
to share it.

913
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:45,480
For legislators, anybody that
where kratom becomes this issue

914
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,640
all of a sudden and they need to
hear our stories.

915
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,680
You know, when I was in DC for
the congressional briefing last

916
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:55,000
December last year, I did go to
see my House Rep and, and I tell

917
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,000
people like, look, you don't
have to go to DC to do this.

918
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:03,240
You're House Rep has and you
know, they have a location in

919
00:46:03,240 --> 00:46:06,680
your city that in addition to
the one in DC and the one at the

920
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,000
state level, the senators have
one at your state capitol.

921
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:14,800
But because I wanted to come to
DC and meet everybody and attend

922
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,560
the congressional briefing, it's
like, OK, well, while I'm here,

923
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:19,840
I'm going to go try to meet the
senators, go try to meet the

924
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,560
House Rep, see how far I get.
Didn't get anywhere with

925
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:24,920
senators.
But the House Rep, I got to sit

926
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:26,560
down with an aide like
unannounced.

927
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,640
I showed up and got to sit down
with the aide that that handles

928
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,680
our FDA issues and she was
really interested in hearing my

929
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:35,840
story.
And it was really cool to like

930
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,280
have somebody listen that didn't
know anything about Kratom.

931
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,040
And while I could have done this
locally in my city, I thought,

932
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,120
you know, maybe that add a
little oomph to it.

933
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,080
You know, that, hey, I happen to
be in town and, you know, while

934
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,320
I'm here, I'd love to meet with
somebody to talk about this.

935
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,080
And it was just a lot of
validation to be able to get

936
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:59,360
your story heard by people in
power that can change our lives.

937
00:46:59,720 --> 00:47:03,120
But there's no question and then
let me let me tell you that the

938
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,520
influencers in the community and
and you know, I'm I'm an

939
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,920
observer in most cases of the
way social media has transformed

940
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:14,800
public advocacy.
And if I were going to name, and

941
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,480
we have at the AKA, by the way,
as you know, that name the

942
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,480
heroes, it's that that Madeleine
at the Kratom stories podcast

943
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:25,240
and it's the Kratom Gals podcast
and it's it's Mike over the

944
00:47:25,240 --> 00:47:27,400
Kratom guy show.
I mean, all these people that

945
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,720
are influencers and people that
are not necessarily fans of

946
00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:32,080
ours.
Brian Gallagher is a great

947
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,080
example.
I mean, his heart's in the right

948
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:35,960
place.
He's pushing hard to get the

949
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,560
right story out about kratom.
We can have disagreements and we

950
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,120
can have we have personal
feelings of animosity.

951
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,920
That's fine that we should set
those aside if to the extent we

952
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,000
can and not take the things
personal.

953
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,640
We're all human beings and we
all come to the table here, to

954
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,440
the battlefield, actually, with
different perspectives.

955
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,360
And we may not agree on
everything together, but we

956
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,600
should agree on the common goal,
which clearly is to keep this

957
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,120
plant legal.
And by whatever means that is

958
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,600
necessary to do that.
Whether it means coming to

959
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,120
Washington DC and what you did
and visiting with your

960
00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:08,080
congressional representatives,
whether it's getting on a phone

961
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,200
call with them or emailing them,
or going out to these local

962
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,600
jurisdictions where kratom is
under threat.

963
00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:16,280
Those are the battlefields that
we need to be there with.

964
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,200
There's many of the weapons that
we can and our weapons are our

965
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:21,520
voices and our personal
testimonials.

966
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,120
And so I'm, I'm in awe of the
work that you do.

967
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:26,920
It's selfless.
It's something that makes a huge

968
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,920
difference in keeping people
informed and motivating people

969
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,840
and reassuring people that their
voice really does matter.

970
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:36,440
So I'm grateful, and the AKA is
deeply grateful for all the work

971
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,320
that you and your colleagues do.
Well, we all appreciate it and

972
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:41,600
none of us set out to be
influencers in the Kratin

973
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,000
community.
We're just all super passionate

974
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,040
about how this plant has changed
our lives and we we want to

975
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:51,280
share that enthusiasm we have
with anybody that will listen

976
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:53,680
because it's been incredibly
life saving.

977
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,560
When I get the kratom gals
together each week for our live

978
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,000
stream, we always, it always
seems to come up in the

979
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:03,280
conversation how we all don't
take this plan for granted that

980
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,480
our lives have been transformed
because of it.

981
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,960
We all suffer from chronic pain
and several of the gals, you

982
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,880
know, also in addition had some
addiction issues.

983
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:15,400
And because of this plant, our
lives have been completely

984
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,880
changed for the better.
And it's just amazing.

985
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,280
And we just, we don't want to
hold that in, you know, we want

986
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:23,520
people to know.
And it's just so validating to

987
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,120
get this message out in a
variety of ways.

988
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:29,600
Social media helps tremendously,
Podcasts like this, live streams

989
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,120
like the kratom gals.
And it's something that anybody

990
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,320
can do.
So I really hope in all the

991
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:38,520
stuff I'm doing that inspires
others to do things as well and

992
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:42,520
just get their story out there
in whatever way they can is

993
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:44,680
incredibly important.
We'll definitely get the link to

994
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:48,560
the AKA and protect kratom.org
on the website.

995
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,840
Make sure people know they can
easily just go click on the link

996
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,360
to sign up.
My last question for you, Mac.

997
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:56,480
This is such an amazing
conversation, by the way.

998
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:58,960
But knowing everything you know
now about kratom, you know a

999
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,000
lot.
You've been in this for quite a

1000
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:02,440
while.
What advice would you give to

1001
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:06,000
someone who was just getting
started in their own kratom

1002
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:06,480
journey?
Yeah.

1003
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,880
I think that as new products
have come on a landscape here

1004
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,920
and into the market, consumers
need to be careful about, you

1005
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:17,360
know, their experience with
kratom and start slow.

1006
00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:20,320
As I said, the first time I took
it, I took twice as much as I

1007
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,240
should have and it hit me a
little harder.

1008
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:26,000
I learned from that experience.
But now you can take other

1009
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,680
people's experiences and learn
from that and start slow.

1010
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:32,800
Find out what that right spot is
for the kind of experience that

1011
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,560
you're seeking with kratom and
take time to just feel it out.

1012
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,200
Experiment with it to find that
right serving size.

1013
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,480
The serving sizes that are
recommended in packaging today

1014
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:46,320
rightfully should be cautious.
So you need to observe that and

1015
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,280
then find the right spot.
I think that the reassuring

1016
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:54,320
thing that is certainly a
milestone in our safety journey

1017
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,760
with kratom is the FDA dose
finding study.

1018
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:59,400
Because the FDA has demonized
kratom to the point where they

1019
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,000
believed and they told the
clinicians who were part of

1020
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,480
their dose finding study and
that's where they take start at

1021
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:08,000
1g and they escalated up until
they see a serious adverse

1022
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:09,720
event.
They predicted that they were

1023
00:51:09,720 --> 00:51:12,400
going to see serious adverse
events at 6 grams.

1024
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,120
Now remember that was 6 grams
taken in a 5 minute period.

1025
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,400
So they literally predicted
people would be flopping on the

1026
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,680
floor and riding into seizures
at that level in that short

1027
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,040
period of time.
They blew right past 6 grams.

1028
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:27,120
They got to 8, they got to 10,
they got the 12 grams consumed

1029
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:31,240
in a 5 minute period and they
saw a mild, not considered

1030
00:51:31,240 --> 00:51:35,560
serious in any way, adverse
event by both the kratom human

1031
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:37,960
subjects and the placebos
because you were consuming that

1032
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:40,560
plant material in a 5 minute
period at 12 grams, it's a lot

1033
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:42,320
of material.
So they got nauseous and that's

1034
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,480
when the FDA said, okay, well,
the scientists said enough and

1035
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:47,680
the FDA agreed.
They said that kratom is well

1036
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,960
tolerated at all dose levels.
So I think that's instructive to

1037
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:54,840
people that now we have this
affirmation from the FDA that

1038
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,840
kratom is not dangerous.
And so you take the responsibly

1039
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,440
manufactured products and you,
you know, obviously feel it out,

1040
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:05,480
you're going to be fine and and
find what you need it for.

1041
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,680
My wife uses it in order to they
have the boost of damaging

1042
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,880
increase focus.
I use it for pain.

1043
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:13,680
I don't have problem, at least I
don't think I have problem

1044
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,200
focusing.
Some people may think I do but I

1045
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:18,640
use it for pain others you know,
depending on that experience

1046
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,680
you're looking for they about
1/3 of the American population

1047
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,640
according to studies done of
consumer behaviors by the

1048
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,200
University of Florida
demonstrates that people use

1049
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,520
kratom as a replacement for a
cup of coffee or for the energy

1050
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:33,920
boost and increase focus.
Another third, use it for mood

1051
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:36,520
boosting and fighting back
feelings of depression.

1052
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:39,640
And then that third tranche of
people at higher doses are using

1053
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,520
it to manage acute and chronic
pain and to deal with opioid

1054
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,520
addictions.
Those, whatever you are on that

1055
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,960
journey, whatever your need is,
then appropriately dose yourself

1056
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:51,960
to that point and I think you'll
have a very positive experience

1057
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:53,960
with kratom.
Excellent advice.

1058
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:56,360
Thank you back so much for
spending time with us and

1059
00:52:56,360 --> 00:53:00,000
sharing your journey with kratom
and how we can all get involved

1060
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:01,840
as consumers.
I appreciate it.

1061
00:53:02,240 --> 00:53:04,080
And this has been my pleasure.
Thank you so much.

1062
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,640
Thank you for listening.
You can get more information at

1063
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:14,520
kratomstoriespodcast.com,
including show notes from this

1064
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:15,080
episode.