Ep 52: Kratom for a Balanced Life: Mind, Body, and Connection with John Newmark

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Before we dive into today's
episode, I want to let you know

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about Kratom Real Talk.
It's a new community for

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positive, uplifting discussions
about the power of whole leaf

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kratom.
If you'd like to be part of the

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conversation and learn more
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So I'm here with John Newmark.
You may remember I had him on

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earlier in the year, episode
number 17 of the Kratom's Toys

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podcast.
It's been a while.

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I wanted to bring John back
because we're doing something a

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little different today.
We're going to have him talk

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about mind, body and connection
and how this all relates to

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kratom.
Going to be a very interesting

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conversation.
I think we're going to learned

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so many great new insights out
of this.

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So basically the intersection
between physical and mental

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pain.
So John, thank you so much for

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coming back.
And I feel like it's going to be

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a continuation of our last
conversation we had on here.

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Oh yeah.
I really look forward to it and

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thank you very, very much for
having me on again.

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I appreciate it.
Absolutely.

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Yeah.
I think there's such an

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important topic and you know,
you and I message each other

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pretty regularly on emails and
in the Kratom Real Talk

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community, which I just love
that place.

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So great for conversation and
about kratom.

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But you know, we've been
chatting back and forth all

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year.
Just kind of us continuing the

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conversation because you
definitely have a lot to say

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about kratom, which you
discovered yourself as a

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consumer and how it relates to
us in other ways.

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Things we don't always hear
about, you hear a lot of people

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talk about, well, I found kratom
for my chronic pain or I found

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it because it helps with
addiction.

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You don't always hear about how
people are using it for their

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mental health.
A lot of people do anxiety and

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depression and all that, but as
you know, as a listener to the

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Kratom Stories podcast, I
appreciate that so much.

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You're always hearing the
stories that I have on here.

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And so many times people have
said to me that, you know, they

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started kratom for their chronic
pain or they help, they started

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kratom for getting off of
fentanyl or, or heroin or

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something.
It's always through that

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conversation at some point.
So many times people said, by

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the way, you know, it really
lifts me out of depression.

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I don't have to take meds
anymore for my anxiety.

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Like I just hear a variety of
mental health related things.

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So I'm really eager to hear what
you have to say about all of

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this because I know there's a
lot to talk about.

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When it there's a lot and if
it's OK, the first thing I want

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to say is as a licensed
psychotherapist, we are still

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not allowed to prescribe.
So I am not saying to anybody,

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you know, stop your medication
and go use kratom at all.

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I'm just talking about my
experience and what I've

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observed in the tremendous
overlap between mind and body,

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physical and mental pain.
And there's a huge disconnect

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that I see in my practice and in
myself as well, because people

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with anxiety and depression and
chronic pain are particularly

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hard to treat.
Doctors have a really hard time.

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And the overlap of these issues
is impossible to ignore.

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It's just impossible to ignore
because pain leads to depression

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and anxiety.
And then if you're depressed and

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anxious, it makes you more
vulnerable to pain.

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So there's like this loop and as
a health, you know, as health

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provider, freedom kind of fits
in this gap, if that makes

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sense.
You know, it could fill in this

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gap and it it certainly has for
me.

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It has for people in my practice
in my life.

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And I wanted to just talk more
about that, have a conversation.

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Yeah, it's such an important
topic, so I'm glad that you're

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back to discuss this with us.
It helps so many people with

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anxiety and depression, but you
don't really hear about that

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much when people talk about
kratom in general.

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You just primarily hear pain
relief and addiction.

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Why do you think that is not
taught?

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I mean, is it because mental
health just has such a stigma

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that it's just not talked about
as much as you hear with chronic

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pain and addiction stuff?
I think it could be that,

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Adeline, I also think a lot of
people don't realize.

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They don't realize that they've
been in so much pain for so long

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that their mood disorders are
related.

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And because kratom is like a
pharmacy and a plant, like we've

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all said, it scratches a lot of
the receptors in our brain, not

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just the opioid receptor, which
is very lightly and it

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scratches, it works on some of
our serotonin and dopamine

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receptors, which have to do with
mood.

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And, you know, this has been
researched.

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There are tons of papers of
research about this.

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Why does that matter?
Well, a lot of the drugs we use,

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the medications,
antidepressants, things like

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that, they're often prescribed
with pain medications to address

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all these things.
Wouldn't it be great if we could

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cut down on that and and you
know, incorporate kratom and

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other plant medicines with much
less side effects, believe it or

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not, much less of a withdrawal
problems because these drugs are

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impossible to get off of.
We don't hear that.

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We don't hear enough about that.
With kratom, some people have a

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little difficulty for a few days
and and that's it.

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With things like Prozac or
Wellbutrin or any of these well

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known medications, it can take
weeks or longer.

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People are miserable coming off
of them and yet they are

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prescribed all the time.
So there's kind of a bias

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because kratom can't be made
into a drug because it's a

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plant.
So there's a bias there.

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And some of these medications
have horrible, horrible

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withdrawals.
Anybody who's been on them knows

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that.
So I just kind of wanted to

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throw that out there.
Another thing that kratom does

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so well is it kind of just makes
us feel like ourselves.

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It makes us feel better.
Things dissolve away, like our

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mood is better, our pain just
kind of lifts, but we don't feel

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high, we just feel like more of
our self.

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Side effects are very rare,
would you agree?

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Absolutely.
I mean, when I think back in my

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pain management days and all the
different medications I took

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versus consuming a plant, you
know, it's just a leaf.

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I drink it like a tea and I
think that's why so many people

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end off end up getting off of a
lot of meds when they discover

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kratom because they're realizing
they don't need so many of them

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that this one plant, like you
said, you know, pharmacy in this

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plant that it takes care of a
lot of different things in our

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body.
That's exactly right.

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And do you know what the lethal
dose of kratom is so far?

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Do you have any idea?
I don't think there is one.

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My understanding with the
research is there's not a lethal

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dose, not yet.
Not that they're anything

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they're aware of.
Correct.

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Can you say the same thing about
other medications?

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No, as somebody who is in pain
management for nine years,

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taking opioids every day and,
you know, not having any mental

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health stuff, anxiety,
depression.

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I mean, yes, some depression
from living with chronic pain,

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but not to the point, you know,
need to be medicated.

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I had all kinds of side effects.
And it's not always just the,

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oh, you know, the worry about
you're going to stop breathing

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and die, which is very common
with opioids, prescribed

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opioids, but other things that
you could have issues with the

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different pain meds and you
switch to kratom and it's like,

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wow, I feel great.
I'm not having all the pain.

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My mood is lifted and I'm not
having any of the side effects

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I've had with all these various
medications I've taken in the

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past.
So.

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And you're going to your life,
aren't you?

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You're doing your things better,
but you're not like your mood

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isn't altered to the point where
you can't drive, right?

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Exactly.
And you know, right now we are

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in a national mental health
crisis in our country.

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There's no other way to say it.
We're also in a chronic in

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crisis.
And these are overlapping.

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And this is what makes me, as
someone who is a clinician and

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takes care of people, so
frustrated as it's not being

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dramatic.
We are in a crisis and chronic

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pain is being treated less and
less and less.

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Opiates are harder and harder to
get a hold of for various

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reasons.
Some of the mental health

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medications, the pharmacies are
out of them.

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This is all linked, You know,
somehow the FDA are pulling a

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lot of these things out and
leaving people to suffer.

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I just wanted to throw that into
the conversation because since

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COVID and everything we've gone
through in the past, what, five

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years, six years, we are
traumatized collective and we

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need, sometimes we need more
than just therapy.

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We need some help with our
brain, with our

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neurotransmitters and drugs are
not the only way to get to that

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result, for example, really
quickly.

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I also wanted to mention the
schedule one drugs known as, you

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know, plant medicines like
psilocybin mushrooms, mescaline,

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LSDDMT, which are actually not
planned, but they're synthetic.

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These are all highly effective,
highly effective drugs that are

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listed as no use, addictive and
dangerous.

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They are less dangerous
collectively than alcohol and

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cigarettes.
And why am I mentioning that?

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Because these are proven to be
highly effective in mood

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disorders and pain disorders.
Why would the government have

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scheduled these things?
And the schedule 1, you know,

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this is all look, you can look
it up, Google it.

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Kratom in some townships and
parishes is being listed in a

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similar way.
This is crazy.

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This is absolutely insane and
it's scary to me.

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Yeah, it is scary because yeah,
there are right now as we're

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recording this in November 2024,
there are 6 states in the US

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where it is banned.
And not only banning the sale,

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but if with possession is
considered a felony and they

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have it as schedule one, meaning
is illegal.

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If you're caught with it you go
to jail.

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If you have a certain amount,
they consider it trafficking, so

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then you know you will go to
prison.

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Oh my gosh.
And we know with schedule one

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that it means that it cannot be
researched.

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Right.
Also, well, you can with

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special, for example, like with
psilocybin, with government

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permission.
There's a lot of studies being

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happening now.
And guess what?

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The rate of cure, the cure rate
or the percentage rate of people

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who get better is 80 to 90%
higher than any medication we

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have.
I mean, you know, I didn't want

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to focus on those particular
substances, but random falls

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somewhere kind of in that
category.

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It's not a psycho active so much
drug.

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It's not a psychedelic.
However, kratom is very active

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in the nervous system and very,
very effective pain relief.

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Some people are been on it for
5-10 years for depression and

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anxiety.
I just wanted, you know, wanted

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to mention that it's very
frustrating.

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Also extremely effective in some
people for both that

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intersection I wanted to talk
about.

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So I just wanted to bring that
up.

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One thing I want to ask, you
know, when you mentioned

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psychoactive, we hear so much in
the news that Kratom is

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psychoactive and you said that
is not or not really

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psychoactive.
What is exactly psychoactive and

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what, what is kratom in in that
realm?

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Because there's always this
confusion.

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It's like psychoactive.
Well when I consider kratom, I

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don't feel like it's doing
anything psychoactive.

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Yeah, that's a great question.
And and it should be explained a

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little further.
It is active within our nervous

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system and within the brain and
spinal cord and all of that, but

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it's not psychedelic.
So the difference would be

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kratom does affect our
neurotransmitters.

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You know, it does tickle our
opioid receptors, but we don't

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get high from it.
We don't get that extreme

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euphoria, that addictive type of
action that those other drugs

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can have.
As a matter of fact, kratom has

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no respiratory depression like
opiates do.

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00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,040
There's more than 40 alkaloids
in it.

228
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:13,640
It's not just one thing like
taking Oxycontin or Suboxone,

229
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:18,320
which is basically one thing.
So it's active in our psyche.

230
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:23,160
Psychoactive just means active
in the brain, but it's not, it

231
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,200
doesn't put us into a drunken
state or a, you know,

232
00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:31,000
hallucinatory state, but it's
active in the way that is very

233
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,480
helpful because the part of our
brain that has to do with pain,

234
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,600
physical or emotional, is the
same part of the brain, if that

235
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,880
makes sense.
A lot of people realize that

236
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,680
opioids used to actually be
prescribed in the 40s and 50s

237
00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,120
for depression.
Think about that.

238
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:54,160
They aren't anymore because they
can be very addictive habit

239
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,360
form.
They were very effective back

240
00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,360
then.
So the opioid receptors in our

241
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,160
brain, you know, it's very
complex.

242
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,920
Radium though is unique because
it scratches these receptors

243
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:11,480
without fully antagonizing them.
Does that make sense?

244
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,120
Yeah.
No, that that does make sense.

245
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,360
Or being a full agonist, I
should say.

246
00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,280
Right.
And that would explain, right.

247
00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,240
That's why we don't have
impaired cognition because of

248
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,000
that, because we don't get, we
don't get high.

249
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,600
We don't get like in a drunken
state like you were talking

250
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,680
about.
Not that I'm aware of.

251
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,920
I've never really, it might
exist in high doses.

252
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,600
I've never heard anyone say, oh,
I couldn't take my keys and

253
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:38,880
drive the car because I'm on
kratom.

254
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,480
Could it happen perhaps Or maybe
they're, you know, mixing it

255
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,240
with alcohol or other type of
things?

256
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,840
There's no way to know.
But I don't think it is a danger

257
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:52,960
in that way, not to my
knowledge.

258
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,320
Have you heard of anybody who
was impaired from their cratum

259
00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,520
use for pain?
Or you know in the lower doses

260
00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,320
like 10 grams or below per at a
time?

261
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,359
Yeah, when when people talk
about whole leaf cratum powder,

262
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,079
like what I consume, you just
don't hear about any kind of

263
00:17:09,079 --> 00:17:14,119
impairment, even if you're
consuming an amount like maybe 8

264
00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,640
or 10 grams.
I mean, even at those levels

265
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,240
which would be considered high,
don't hear about that.

266
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,920
But then, you know, there's
extracts and then we're hearing

267
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:28,319
about these new 7OH tablets that
are synthesized and it's nothing

268
00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:32,920
like the whole leaf kratom.
And there hasn't been, I don't

269
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:37,360
think there's been as as many
studies on extracts and we

270
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:40,160
haven't heard of any studies on
these new 7OH tablets.

271
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:42,480
Can I say a quick something
about sure.

272
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,880
Sure.
I've just become aware the seven

273
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:51,520
OH is what we call a it's like a
byproduct of an alkaloid.

274
00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,720
So it might exist in a small
portion.

275
00:17:55,120 --> 00:17:58,480
It's a byproduct of mitrageny.
What is mitrageny?

276
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,760
It's the main alkaloid in
kratom, but what's going on is

277
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,960
they've made it into a full
agonist opioid, which means

278
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,960
there's very little difference
between that and Vicodin or

279
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,760
oxycodone.
Anything else and it's that is

280
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:19,000
troublesome.
Very much so, because right now

281
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,520
people think kratom is kratom is
kratom and it's not.

282
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,760
You know, I feel like there's
really, to me too, Kratom holy

283
00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,560
powder and kratom extracts, the
seven.

284
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,720
OH, and a lot of my fellow
kratom consumers and advocates

285
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,800
feel the same way.
We feel like the 708 is

286
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,920
synthesize is taking what's
natural in the plant, which is a

287
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:47,080
very small amount of the seven
hydroxyimageogynine is taking a

288
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,920
small amount that's already
there present when we consume

289
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:51,800
our our whole leaf Creighton
powder.

290
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,560
But they're synthesizing that
one thing and make it an

291
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,120
incredibly potent, there's no
other alkaloids in this.

292
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,560
So it's completely synthesized.
So they shouldn't be allowed to

293
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:03,480
call it kratom.
I feel like that just should not

294
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,000
even be part of the whole kratom
industry because they're just,

295
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,720
they're calling them kratom.
I mean, I've seen so many

296
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,040
packages of these online.
They're highlighting 70 H, It's

297
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,040
all about 70 H.
But they will have the word

298
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,760
kratom in their packaging.
Very big and bold.

299
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,640
I mean, how do you feel about
that when you have a plant that

300
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,080
people consume responsibly and
do really well?

301
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,560
And then on the other side of
the spectrum, you got this new

302
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,360
synthesized tablet is very
bothersome, worrisome and

303
00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:32,880
bothersome.
It's scary because human nature

304
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:40,560
is going to be to lump it all
together. 7 OH is a man made

305
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,880
chemical of a little alkaloid
that does exist in tiny

306
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:49,760
proportion.
One out of 47 OH is very.

307
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:54,760
I think it will make people very
impaired and it could lead to

308
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,760
respiratory depression, which
whole kratom leaf powder does

309
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,040
not.
And that's very worrisome.

310
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,800
I'm glad you brought that up.
I really am because whole leaf

311
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:10,120
kratom powder is the only thing
that I advocate for extracts in

312
00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:15,040
a rare, in rare situations like
coming off of opioids, maybe

313
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,880
have a place.
I don't know if you agree, but

314
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,920
and that's only with the really
reputable companies part of the

315
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,640
American Kratom Association.
That's my opinion only.

316
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:28,360
Is that?
Your Yeah.

317
00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:32,800
And I agree.
And I think it has a place for

318
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,040
people that have been, you know,
are very familiar with kratom

319
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,320
and they're more of an advanced
consumer.

320
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,400
They understand the plant.
They know plenty.

321
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,840
So they're not just going into
it blindly.

322
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:48,360
But you do hear stories where
people are in such pain that the

323
00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:50,000
whole leaf kratom powder is not
enough.

324
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,960
I mean, then you hear about some
people coming out of addiction

325
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,560
that needs something more than
just the powder in the

326
00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,040
beginning.
And so I think it has its

327
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:01,960
plates.
I'm not totally against it.

328
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,280
I don't personally consume it
and I don't personally advocate

329
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,760
for it.
You know, we get so much so many

330
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,400
products that are that demonize
the whole kratom industry.

331
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,960
And it's incredibly frustrating
because if all we had in this

332
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,600
world was kratom holy powder,
and that was the only thing as a

333
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,160
consumer any of us could have
access to, there would not be

334
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:25,520
demonization of this product
because it's extracts that bring

335
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,440
all this negativity because they
are synthesized.

336
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,880
They're strong people, you know,
to be able.

337
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:34,120
But being able to buy it in a
gas station, I think it's just

338
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:35,720
not right.
I mean, it should not have easy

339
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,360
access.
A smoke shop.

340
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,200
If it's behind the counter,
wherever, any kind of

341
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,200
storefront, it should be behind
the counter.

342
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:46,200
Otherwise online where there's
lots of information and people

343
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:47,880
aren't just walking up in a gas
station.

344
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,360
Oh, let me grab this.
Oh, it says energy.

345
00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:53,040
They think it's the five hour
energy little bottle.

346
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,320
I just want to add exactly to
what you're saying.

347
00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,400
The most important thing when
treating someone is what we call

348
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,400
harm reduction because nothing
is 100% safe, not even water.

349
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,120
You can actually die from
drinking too much water.

350
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:12,640
The most legal drug on earth
causes more death and that's

351
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:18,080
alcohol.
So if you look over any coronors

352
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:22,120
report where they find kratom as
a substance in the body and they

353
00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:24,160
say, oh, kratom killed this
person.

354
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,120
Most of the time it's such a lie
because there are so many

355
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:32,680
circumstances with that often
other substances, other

356
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:37,080
situations.
Kratom, you know, by itself, it

357
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:41,000
does not stop the breathing
center of it might not mix well

358
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,320
with certain other drugs, you
know, that's possible.

359
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:49,080
But people who are using it by
themselves responsibly, you

360
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:50,680
know, and not trying to get
high.

361
00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:55,440
This is an incredibly safe, well
studied substance.

362
00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,920
It really is well studied and
I'm happy to even provide you

363
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:04,160
with some of those studies to
show show in the notes.

364
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,720
Yeah, there's been a lot of
studies on kratom.

365
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,280
You know, I think it's just new
for a lot of people just now

366
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,600
hearing about it.
It's been around in the US for a

367
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:18,280
handful of decades.
It's gotten much more popular, I

368
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,200
would say probably since I
started in 2019.

369
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,880
I'm, I'm five years in and I
definitely see a difference now

370
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,320
versus when I started with the
number of vendors and the amount

371
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,040
of information and how many
people talk about it.

372
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,560
We didn't have nearly as many
people talking about it five

373
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,800
years ago.
And the people that I considered

374
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,400
the Ogs started maybe 10 years
ago.

375
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,480
So it's not like it's been
around a long time, but people

376
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,640
talk about it these days like
it's brand new like this.

377
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,520
This is a drug and it's not a
drug, but this is a drug that

378
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,840
just came out of nowhere, is not
coming out of nowhere, but it

379
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,080
doesn't cause problems.
So that's why it's not known.

380
00:23:56,360 --> 00:23:59,880
But with the extracts and the
708 and we're now finding out

381
00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:03,320
that the 708 tablets have most
likely been around for a few

382
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,800
years.
We just that's, there's been

383
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,840
some talk of that, you know,
Misty Brown's big advocate for

384
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,480
kratom has talked about it.
We're thinking that it's been

385
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,840
around, you know, a little bit
like we, we're hearing about it

386
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,320
all the time now, but it just,
it seems like it's, it's been

387
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,240
like building up and it seems
like smoke shops everywhere are

388
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,680
selling them now.
It is just giving kratom such a

389
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,000
bad name.
And it's not even the same

390
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,640
thing.
And it's very, very worrisome

391
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,040
because there are no, there's no
research on that yet because

392
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:34,680
it's newer.
So like you're I'm saying

393
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:36,960
there's all this research on
kratom, whole leaf, powdered

394
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,440
kratom.
There's a ton of research.

395
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,960
They're researching extracts.
As a matter of fact, right now

396
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:47,280
Doctor Kirsten Smith at John
Johns Hopkins is looking for

397
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:52,200
people to come be in a new study
where they're studying consumers

398
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,240
of kratom extracts.
And really, at John Hopkins,

399
00:24:56,360 --> 00:24:59,600
they're doing like a special.
They're down the street from me.

400
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,120
Well, you should look into it.
I have it on my My ex feed, you

401
00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:05,840
know, formerly Twitter.
By the time this episode comes

402
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,720
out, I don't know how much
longer they're looking for and

403
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,240
they're going to provide some
compensation, probably mostly

404
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:12,760
for people coming from out of
town.

405
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,800
But yeah, in my Twitter feed, I
have it posted in there at the

406
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,320
top.
It is a 2 day, one night study

407
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:24,000
where they're looking for is
with kratom extracts and then

408
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,480
they want you're going to take a
dose.

409
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,040
And then I was reading through
like the information because

410
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,640
there's a link to like the
actual information all about it

411
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,000
and how to apply.
And it was saying that like

412
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,120
you're going to take a dose of
like whatever your regular

413
00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:42,240
Kratom is and then you're going
to stop and then like over, you

414
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,320
know, you're going to, they're
going to monitor you overnight.

415
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,280
And I think they're just
looking, I think, for issues

416
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,320
withdrawing and you hear there's
just little or none.

417
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,520
So this is actually a scientific
study they're doing.

418
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,080
It's so interesting.
Three days and two nights.

419
00:25:58,080 --> 00:25:59,600
Sorry I was wrong. 3 days and
two nights.

420
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,520
Three days and two nights.
Yeah.

421
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,240
And John Hopkins, it's it's
interesting you bring this up.

422
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,800
It's the same hospital that's
doing the research on psilocybin

423
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,480
mushrooms.
Really.

424
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,560
It's already been published.
They're fantastic so I'm glad

425
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,720
they've got their hands on them.
Oh, it's because they got Doctor

426
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,120
Kirsten Smith now, and she is
big of all of this.

427
00:26:20,120 --> 00:26:23,520
Yeah, she's, she's like a big
time kratom researcher.

428
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:28,600
And she's published a lot of
studies related to her findings

429
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,040
with kratom.
But we're hearing more studies

430
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:33,680
on humans.
You know, there's been a lot of

431
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,800
studies with rats.
With rats and.

432
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,000
Now we're hearing more with with
humans.

433
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,160
An interesting side note, it's
yet to be been published yet,

434
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,920
but it's been almost a year ago
since, you know, the FDA had

435
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:49,480
made aware.
It's funny, it's not on their

436
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,720
website, you know, it's all anti
kratom stuff on the FDA's

437
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,560
website.
But the FDA has done a single

438
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,640
dose study that they haven't
published it, but they've talked

439
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,520
about it in presentation.
So we know we know this exists,

440
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,760
this study.
But apparently they did a single

441
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,320
dose study where they had the
subjects take a whole bunch of

442
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,080
kratom capsules in a very like
in a 5 minute period.

443
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,440
And to see like they're trying
to see like what's a lethal

444
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:16,800
dose?
That that was the point.

445
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,720
What's a single lethal dose of
kratom?

446
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,000
And they gave them a lot of
kratom.

447
00:27:24,120 --> 00:27:26,400
The amount of kratom they were
giving people would have made me

448
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,200
throw up, I can tell you that.
But it was a lot of kratom in a

449
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,880
short time.
Is that the one where they like

450
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,600
there was a side effect where at
high doses they got a little bit

451
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,400
nauseous?
Yeah, and most likely nauseous

452
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,320
because of all those crate all
the capsules like if you're

453
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,240
going to ingest the amount of
Kratom they were if if you're

454
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,000
consuming 20 grams that.
It's a lot of.

455
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,680
Capsules, that will be a lot of
capsules.

456
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,440
A lot, because typically
capsules hold between .5 and

457
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,280
.8g.
Let's just say they're big

458
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,680
capsules, .8, so almost a whole
gram.

459
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,760
So if you're trying to get to 20
grams, you're taking probably,

460
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,560
you know, I think they did say
it was like 24 capsules, right?

461
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,880
I'm trying to remember.
I sometimes get the numbers

462
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,760
confused because there were so
many participants.

463
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,040
They did so many capsules, but
it was it was a lot.

464
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,800
No, maybe it was 12 grams.
I think I'm getting my numbers

465
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,560
wrong.
I think it was 12 grams of

466
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:19,880
kratom.
Which is.

467
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,320
Still a lot this.
I mean my normal dose is 5g and

468
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,960
this is more than 00.
My God between the capsule

469
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,640
shells sitting in my stomach I'd
for sure be nauseous.

470
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,680
And that much kratom make some
people to get nauseous or, and

471
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,600
or throw up.
And so, and that's like the

472
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,360
worst thing that happens with
kratom.

473
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,320
And they know this.
In this study, the FDA who goes

474
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,000
around demonizing kratom, who
has so much negative information

475
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,680
on their website about kratom,
yet they know it doesn't kill.

476
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,360
I just, I have to add to that,
and I think I said this in the

477
00:28:54,360 --> 00:29:00,560
first podcast, you can't patent
a drug in certain circumstances.

478
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,160
Like you can't go out and patent
kratom because it exists in

479
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,760
nature.
You have to take out something

480
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,920
from it and then patent that.
It's like they got aspirin from

481
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,360
the Willow bark tree, but you
can patent the tree.

482
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,240
That's an example I use.
And with this mental health

483
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:24,320
crisis going on, a lot of people
can use kratom maybe in lieu of

484
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,880
their anxiety medication.
Not everybody.

485
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,200
And I'm not against meds and
bro, everything that's helpful,

486
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,560
but don't discard this whole
leaf Creighton powder,

487
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:40,360
especially with this type of
study that shows the safety

488
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,040
factor, the harm reduction that
I was Speaking of before.

489
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,840
You know, I think you brought up
a really good point.

490
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,240
I don't know anyone who would
need more than what, 10 grams at

491
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,960
one time unless they're trying
to get a high or some something

492
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,000
like that.
I don't know of anybody.

493
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,160
They might vomit.
Yeah, but that's that's a high

494
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,120
dose.
I mean, most people take a much

495
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,480
lower.
I know some people that get pain

496
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,400
relief by taking like 1/4
teaspoon or half a teaspoon,

497
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,880
which is a tiny amount.
So it affects everybody

498
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,640
differently, you know a case by
case thing.

499
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,640
I know some people that take a
or 10 grams every dose.

500
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,000
So what's interesting about this
plant, I always tell everybody

501
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,760
it's not one-size-fits-all.
So it affects everybody

502
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,960
differently and everybody's dose
is different.

503
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,360
And even the type of kratom with
the different vein colors of

504
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,720
leaves, it affects everybody
differently.

505
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,520
So it's very different from a
drug because, yeah, when you

506
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,160
think of like something like an
aspirin, you know, going back to

507
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,400
what you're talking about before
with the plant versus the drug,

508
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,760
you know, it's formulated, is
formulated into a medication.

509
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,880
You take one, maybe 2.
And when we're talking about

510
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,720
kratom, people go, Oh yeah, my
friend takes 10 capsules.

511
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,160
Well, that might just be 5
grams.

512
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,720
You know, it goes back to it's a
plant inside the capsule.

513
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,160
It's not a drug that's been
formulated.

514
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,360
If kratom was a formulated drug,
we'd probably be taking one

515
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,080
tablet.
That's a great point because

516
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,320
with kratom, you're not going to
likely just take, you know, take

517
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,520
one or two for it like you would
for a headache.

518
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,960
You're going to take the tablets
or the capsules.

519
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,400
You need more for the results.
So what happens?

520
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,640
People say, oh, it didn't work
for me.

521
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,960
No, you need to take enough.
Just like you don't want to take

522
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,360
too much, you don't want to take
too little because then it just

523
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,200
won't be effective.
And with anxiety, especially

524
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,320
anxiety disorders which are
really horrible to live with, I

525
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:48,560
have experienced myself and I
have seen some of my patients of

526
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:53,560
their own volition take medium
amounts of kratom and have just

527
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,720
felt so much better, more
functional.

528
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,320
That doesn't mean they shouldn't
be on their meds, but if they

529
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,520
can lower their meds or they can
speak to their physician and

530
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:10,800
work together, why not?
Anxiety medications, Madeleine,

531
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:16,280
can be very hard to get off of,
if not impossible, and they're

532
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,480
very effective as well.
I'd rather take a plant if

533
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,880
possible.
I would, if I had to take pills

534
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,640
or I have to take opiates, I
would do that too.

535
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,040
But I want the option.
And I think it's just almost

536
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:33,920
criminal to keep people away
from safe, harm reductive tools.

537
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,400
And I'm very passionate about
that because we're, again, we

538
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,800
are in a mental health and
chronic pain crisis.

539
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,800
It's very important that we have
these discussions.

540
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,040
I agree and I'm glad you're so
passionate about it because I

541
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,360
think this is something that
needs to be talked about more.

542
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,120
That's why I'm so glad you came
on the podcast to have this

543
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,640
discussion with me.
What's interesting with so many

544
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,480
people I've talked to, both for
the podcast, I've talked to so

545
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,000
many people in the kratom
community over on TikTok and X

546
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,360
all over social media.
It's interesting how there are

547
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,320
plenty of people that have been
able to get off of all kinds of

548
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,400
medications completely for
anxiety, depression, all the

549
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,800
different things.
But I would say probably just as

550
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,280
as many has said, they were just
able to reduce like, like they

551
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:23,520
still take some of these meds.
They don't need to take as much

552
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,720
or they don't need to take all
of them.

553
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,760
And so I've seen so many people
on TikTok say, I know one was

554
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,520
like, I went from 27 medications
to three.

555
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,560
It's like, whoa, that's amazing
to hear something like that.

556
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,200
So I totally agree with you.
It's not always a you're able to

557
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,120
get completely off of any kind
of meds you take for your mental

558
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,360
health that it could just be and
you're talking right, talking

559
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,240
about like, you know, getting
off some of those not easy to

560
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,600
do.
So it's almost like a juggling

561
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,360
act and it's important to talk
to your doctor and.

562
00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:00,640
Always work with your physician.
Always because some things might

563
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:05,360
interact and your doctor would
know best or should know best.

564
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:06,960
Sure.
I was going to say should.

565
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,600
I'm so glad you said that
because I was about to say

566
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,920
should because in my 5 1/2 year
journey with kratom, I've yet to

567
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,400
meet anybody in the medical
profession that has ever heard

568
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,719
of kratom.
It's always me educating them

569
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,040
and I always send them to
kratomanswers.org.

570
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,199
I think it's the best place to
send anybody in the medical

571
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:26,840
profession because it's a
website the AKA American Krame

572
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,600
Association set up specifically
talking about the science of

573
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,800
this plant.
So it has a lot of great

574
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,840
information for people, I think,
in the medical or research

575
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,760
community.
But what do we do when the

576
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:44,480
doctor does not know what kratom
is, but you want to use kratom?

577
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,560
But get guidance on how to
navigate that with one of your

578
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,120
other meds.
May I?

579
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,679
I'd like to add to something you
said on one of the podcasts that

580
00:34:54,679 --> 00:35:00,920
your doctor, I believe, was, I
don't know, approved or was

581
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:02,960
happy for you that you found
something that worked.

582
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,160
She was happy for me.
She had never heard of it and

583
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,400
she she's just glad she her
words were.

584
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,200
I'm glad you found something
that works because to be able to

585
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,760
say to the doctor not to
demonize opioids, opioids helped

586
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,040
me.
I didn't have any addiction

587
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,600
issues with it.
Sadly, if I have no choice, I

588
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,080
will go back to them like I I'm
somebody that has to take

589
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,880
something for my chronic pain.
I would much rather consume

590
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:26,320
kratom.
So it's why I'm a very

591
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,240
passionate advocate to keep it
legal.

592
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,480
But she could see my medical
history in the chart in the my

593
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,080
chart thing.
And so she could see that, yeah,

594
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,840
there's somebody that would be
in pain management and for her

595
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,840
to find out from me that like,
oh, I don't go to pain

596
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,000
management anymore.
I don't take all the opioids

597
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,680
anymore that I used to take.
I just consumed this plant

598
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:48,720
called kratom and it helps my
chronic pain.

599
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:50,720
But she didn't know anything
about it.

600
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,280
And, and she was new for me
about two years ago.

601
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,240
I think that's when I found her.
I started going to her a few

602
00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:57,720
years ago.
So I switched primary.

603
00:35:57,720 --> 00:36:00,920
This is primary care physician.
I'd switched and so.

604
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:05,680
You're very lucky.
She could just see how good I

605
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,120
was doing and she can because
you know, the first, these first

606
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:10,800
few years with her, I went every
six months.

607
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,520
I'm just now going to switch to
annual with her is what she told

608
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,280
me.
But going every six months, you

609
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,560
know, I've seen her quite a few
times in the last couple of

610
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,520
years.
So she sees how well I'm doing

611
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,760
for somebody that lives with
chronic pain, you know,

612
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,720
degenerative disc disease in my
neck and back is real bad.

613
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:32,200
And she's just wowed by it.
So yeah, multiple times she said

614
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,760
to me, I'm glad this helps, keep
doing what you're doing.

615
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:37,600
I'm glad you found something
that works.

616
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,040
And I feel like I'm educating
her, which is important.

617
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,280
So I'm always trying to educate
these people in the medical

618
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,200
community.
I always bring up Kratom

619
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,080
whenever I go to a doctor, even
my dermatologist, which I've

620
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,800
been doing a lot lately because
of skin cancer stuff.

621
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,920
But you know, that's like a
doctor where like you really do

622
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,240
not have to put down what you
use for pain relief.

623
00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:00,120
But I want them to learn.
I want everybody to learn about

624
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:01,320
Kratom.
So when you know, when they ask

625
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,680
for your meds, you know, you put
they put all that stuff in your

626
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,720
chart or every time you go, hey,
let's just double check on your

627
00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:07,800
meds.
Are you still taking?

628
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,360
Duh, duh, duh.
I just want I want kratom to be

629
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,360
in the chart because when
they're reading all the meds to

630
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,760
you, every time you go to see if
you verify, I hear them say

631
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,000
kratom out loud and I love it
because I know they've never

632
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:20,840
heard of it.
And hopefully.

633
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,760
I have to add to that, Madeline,
that anybody who has a computer

634
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:31,040
and a search browser can pull up
all the research studies, and

635
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,560
there are many.
So the fact that a doctor

636
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:38,120
doesn't know is not a good
enough excuse because once you

637
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,520
know, it's your duty.
Remember the first thing they

638
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,400
teach you in medical schools
first, do no harm.

639
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:49,000
Pull it up and you look and you
validate your patient and say, I

640
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,760
don't know, going to find out.
It's pure laziness and it's

641
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,000
unacceptable to me, not your
doctor.

642
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,200
But when I hear these horror
stories, especially as they are

643
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:05,320
withdrawing opioids from the
market, which scares the heck

644
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,280
out of me.
Not for myself, but for others.

645
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,280
Oh, I don't know about freedom
or I don't know about this

646
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,200
thing, therefore it's not valid.
Get busy and advocate for your

647
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,160
patients is what I say that
makes me angry.

648
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,280
It happens too much where
doctors, they're not properly

649
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,400
informed, they've got
misinformation and or

650
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,800
propaganda.
And I don't know if you remember

651
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,480
my episode I did several months
back with Laura Romney, that was

652
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,680
episode 41.
She's the one that has that

653
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,480
trigeminal neuralgia, the one
with the fate of severe face

654
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,280
pain that's called like the
suicide disease.

655
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,920
And I was shocked when she tells
in the podcast, she tells the

656
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:49,320
story of her pain management
doctor and she's just started

657
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,000
taking Kratom.
And so she tells the doctor

658
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,920
about Kratom and I'm pretty sure
it was with her.

659
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:57,720
I hope I'm not confusing her
with somebody.

660
00:38:57,720 --> 00:38:59,720
I'm pretty sure that was the
story was her story.

661
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,800
If I'm wrong, if I'm wrong, I
apologize.

662
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,880
I know what this story like just
like freaked me out, but I'm

663
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,280
pretty sure it was Laura.
Anyway, the doctor said, OK, you

664
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,560
need to decide right now is
either me or kratom.

665
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,240
Like this was a new pain
management doctor so she had to

666
00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:18,520
decide on the spot.
Could you imagine you discover

667
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,200
kratom?
Oh, I can't imagine.

668
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,280
It's helping your pain
immensely, but you're getting a

669
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,760
new pain management doctor.
And there are a lot of people in

670
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,640
the chronic pain community that
discover Kratom, but they still

671
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,600
need a pain management doctor.
I don't know, a lot of people

672
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,600
still do.
And so she she was changing

673
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:35,880
doctors.
I don't remember.

674
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,640
I don't remember the reason, but
she, you know, she was this new

675
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,080
pain management Doctor Who
apparently bought into the

676
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,680
misinformation about Kratom.
And she tells him, you know,

677
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,120
Kratom is helping me.
It's like, well, you need to

678
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,240
before it rise up right this
minute.

679
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:53,000
You have to decide.
Yeah, that trigeminal, I think

680
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,280
it's trigeminal neuralgia.
That's how you pronounce it.

681
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,640
It is also known as the suicide
disease and I've had a couple,

682
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,760
only two people that have had
that.

683
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,520
And I'm telling you, the
suffering, they say it's worse

684
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,480
than childbirth, it's worse than
migraines.

685
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,240
It's unbearable pain.
And any doctor that would do

686
00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:14,920
that should have their license
revoked.

687
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,520
I'm sorry.
You know, I don't mean to sound

688
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,760
angry or but I.
Because our job is to advocate.

689
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,720
What can I do for you?
How can I help you?

690
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,200
And if I can't help you, who
can?

691
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:31,200
You know, that's our job.
Whether you're a nurse, a

692
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,880
therapist, a doctor, anything,
it's to advocate.

693
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,360
And living with chronic pain is
unbearable.

694
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:43,200
It's unbearable and unnecessary.
And that's my soapbox.

695
00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:46,600
I love it.
I think if you discover this

696
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,200
plant is helping you immensely,
doctors should be open minded

697
00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:54,400
and work with you for your
overall health and do no harm,

698
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,920
which you know, is not always
the case anymore.

699
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,480
You know, we hear how the pain
management community, I mean,

700
00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:03,240
gosh, these doctors that are
just not helping patients

701
00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:05,440
anymore.
You keep hearing the boy.

702
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:09,440
If you follow Claudia Morandi on
TikTok, I'll be sure to put her

703
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:11,840
the link to her TikTok in the
show notes for anybody listening

704
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,600
that's not familiar with her.
Huge, huge advocate, probably

705
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,160
the number one advocate in the
chronic pain community that I've

706
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:21,400
ever come across.
And she's always just posting

707
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:26,360
these crazy real life videos
telling the stories of like

708
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:30,120
somebody reaches out to her and
says, I'm in the hospital or my

709
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,200
loved ones in the hospital and
they just had surgery.

710
00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:35,360
They just had an amputation.
Got to love this one.

711
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,240
They just had a limb, limb
amputated and they will not give

712
00:41:39,240 --> 00:41:41,680
them any pain treatment
afterwards.

713
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,280
They're suffering.
You know, Madeline, we could

714
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,720
make an entire podcast about
that.

715
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:51,800
I think Claudia is a hero.
I also, by the way, think you

716
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,120
are because of the advocacy
you've shown.

717
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:57,600
And I'm sorry if I'm
embarrassing you here, but

718
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,400
between the website platform
that you have and these

719
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:05,680
podcasts, you have no idea how
many people this is reaching the

720
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,320
good that you're doing.
It's been very helpful for me.

721
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,840
I've used some of your wisdom
and your podcasts, even with

722
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,880
some of my patients.
I've used it for myself.

723
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,240
And Misty Brown is another one.
I hope I'm not embarrassing her,

724
00:42:21,240 --> 00:42:24,840
but terrific advocate.
She's the one, by the way, who

725
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,200
brought up, Oh, it's helped her
mental health so much as well.

726
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,120
I forgot to mention that.
Is that OK that I mentioned?

727
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,360
Yeah, of course, absolutely.
I mean it.

728
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,680
Kratom has helped her
tremendously with pain, with

729
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,080
addiction and her mental health.
I mean, it has done everything,

730
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,880
which is just so wonderful to
hear people talk about that, you

731
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,800
know, the reason why I advocate
so much and Misty, and there's

732
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,680
so many of us in the community
that are big, loud and proud

733
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,720
advocates.
Most of us are doing this

734
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:59,160
because when we discovered this
plan, it changed our lives.

735
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,320
And we don't want to keep this
information to ourselves.

736
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,920
Most of us never heard about it
until we stumbled upon it.

737
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,840
And nobody should just be
stumbling upon it on their own.

738
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:14,360
Like how I lose access to my
daily opioids or my chronic pain

739
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,400
that I took every day for nine
years because the doctors don't

740
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,920
want to prescribe.
And it's like, well, what am I

741
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,960
going to do next?
Nobody should ever be put in

742
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:24,720
that position.
And it was scary.

743
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,520
And I stumbled upon the
documentary of Leap of Faith,

744
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,840
learned that there's a plant
that helps a lot of people with

745
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:32,560
pain in addition to other
things.

746
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:34,480
And I just remember thinking,
no, it's not.

747
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,640
This ain't going to do anything.
It's not going to, a plan's not

748
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,240
going to help me.
And I was shocked at how well

749
00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:41,000
it's, it's been, it's worked
better.

750
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,000
I know it doesn't do this for
everyone, but for me, it works

751
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,600
way better than the opioids.
If I was still in pain

752
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,840
management right now, I would
really be struggling to say, you

753
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,320
know, we've been talking for 47
minutes.

754
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,480
I would be struggling sitting in
this chair.

755
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:57,600
You know what?
Not like that anymore.

756
00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:02,040
I don't even notice that I have
severe back pain because I'm

757
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:04,440
sitting here and I'm not
hurting.

758
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,680
Very good point.
Because with, you know, with

759
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:11,800
those that have been or were in
pain management, opioids can be

760
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,080
great.
They're very beneficial, but

761
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:18,440
they don't make your pain go
completely away for most of us.

762
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,280
For a lot of us, it reduces it a
bit.

763
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,600
It's like an average person
taking a Tylenol.

764
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,520
That's how I would always like
explain it to somebody who

765
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,320
didn't understand.
I'd say, well, like how you take

766
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,800
a Tylenol and it kind of takes
the edge off of the pain you're

767
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:31,840
having.
You feel better.

768
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:35,200
That's what this Oxycontin does
for me.

769
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,600
You know, the heavy duty opioids
I take for my chronic pain.

770
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,440
Because, you know, you say the
word Oxycontin out loud.

771
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:46,360
People freak out like Oh my God.
It's kind of like, well.

772
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:51,160
The because the media media has
been demonizing Oxycontin since

773
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,800
the 90s.
I remember how in the 90s it was

774
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,600
in the news all the time.
I mean, everybody thinks it's

775
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:58,800
been in the news a lot in the
last five to 10 years.

776
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,840
Josh has seen the 90s.
It was constantly in the news

777
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:07,520
because it was highly abused.
But it was one of my main life

778
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,400
saving opioids that I took.
It worked way better than most,

779
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:16,320
but the pain was still there.
I'm still in pain.

780
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,720
It's just instead of being at
A10, or really I used to say I'd

781
00:45:19,720 --> 00:45:21,920
be at an 11, you know, crank it
up one more.

782
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,360
That would be me.
I'd be like at a set, usually 7

783
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,280
I7, sometimes 6, plenty of times
an 8.

784
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,400
But with cranium, my pain goes
to a zero.

785
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,120
I mean, I wish everybody
experience.

786
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,880
I know not everybody does.
I wish people experience what I

787
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,280
experienced because not too many
people say they're zero.

788
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,680
They'll say they're like at A3
or A5, which is most likely

789
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,840
better than than the opioids.
But I'm not demonizing opioids.

790
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,880
I'm always pro people having the
choice and opportunities to

791
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:51,240
consume.
What helps you?

792
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,000
But yes, I have to go back to
opioids.

793
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,800
I will.
I'm never going to demonize it,

794
00:45:56,040 --> 00:46:00,480
but I'd rather consume kratom.
Heck yeah, it works way better.

795
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:05,280
I don't want to ever lose access
because I'm living a much better

796
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,440
life with kratom than all the
years in pain management where

797
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,760
it was just a miserable way to
live.

798
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:15,040
And that's with the Mets and
without.

799
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:19,200
You have not had to increase and
increase and increase increase

800
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,520
your doses.
With my opioids, I sure had to,

801
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,440
I mean, yeah, I had to go
through periods where it was

802
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:32,360
like a juggling act where you
find one that works and then you

803
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,960
get to a point where it stops
working and so you got to stop

804
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:37,560
it for a while.
So then you do it, use a

805
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,280
different one in that place.
So I mean, I was like musical

806
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:44,640
chairs with a variety of
different opioids and it you're

807
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,040
always having to go up and up
and then take a break from it

808
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:48,800
and just switch.
And it was always frustrating

809
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:50,680
when I switched to one of the
the others that didn't work as

810
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,240
well, but it was a process.
But it's, it was the only way I

811
00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:56,200
could, you know, it was better
than nothing, right?

812
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,800
Kratom, I've never had to go up
and up and up.

813
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,640
I've had no tolerance issues.
I've never stopped.

814
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:06,320
I've never had to take a break.
I'm on the same dose for years

815
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:10,560
now with my kratom as a plant.
It's like it's not an issue like

816
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,120
with meds for me.
I agree.

817
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,800
And, you know, your story was
particularly striking to me

818
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:21,440
because, you know, you were just
let loose, like here today, gone

819
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:26,600
tomorrow, go fend for yourself.
And from what I know of you, you

820
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,880
have not had to increase.
And if you did have to increase

821
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,520
it a little bit occasionally, is
that so terrible?

822
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:37,080
No, it's not a big deal.
There was a time years ago,

823
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,920
several years back, where I did
increase a little bit because I

824
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,240
was having some extra pain.
So I did that.

825
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,320
I'm very aware to always pay
attention to like how I'm

826
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,160
feeling, how my pain is and
overall mood.

827
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,400
And then after a while I'm like,
you know what, I'm just going to

828
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,400
reduce it a little bit and just
go back to my usual just to see.

829
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,520
And I was able to and I didn't
have extra pain because I think

830
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,520
too many people get that mindset
more and more and more you'll

831
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,480
feel better For me if I'm having
a bad pain day, like extra pain

832
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,920
with like we're having a lot of
storms here, a lot of

833
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:11,160
thunderstorms.
And so that makes my pain level

834
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,760
a lot worse.
Regardless, even in my pain

835
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:15,520
management days, I went through
this.

836
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,400
And So what most people do is
they'll just take more, take

837
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,840
more opioids, take more kratom,
take more.

838
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,480
I know it works for some people.
It doesn't work on me.

839
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:28,680
I can't take more more kratom
than what I usually dose in the

840
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,520
intervals I do it.
It won't help.

841
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,200
And so I so I don't even but no,
it doesn't.

842
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:39,880
My maximum and because of my how
bad my pain is with with the

843
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:45,360
degenerative degeneration I have
is I just take my Kratom every

844
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,760
six hours because I it's like
when I was in the pain

845
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:49,520
management days, you start
feeling it wear off.

846
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,320
You know, with the meds I was
having to dose every three

847
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,160
hours.
It was terrible because they

848
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,840
just would go through me, my
body so fast though Kratom, I

849
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:02,000
can go six hours on one dose.
If I try to take more in

850
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:03,680
between, it's not going to do
anything.

851
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:05,600
And if you take too much, it'll
just make you nauseous.

852
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:10,320
So so I know like I can't take
more if I take less, even just

853
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,280
1/4 teaspoon less, I'm not going
to get the pain relief.

854
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,520
So I'm an exact my body is like
you take this exact amount.

855
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:19,680
It's going to be perfect.
If you take more, it's not going

856
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:20,880
to do anything.
If you take less, you're going

857
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:22,360
to be in pain.
Stay at this.

858
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:25,520
That's great.
And I think you mentioned in our

859
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,800
first podcast said sometimes
we'll substitute or not

860
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:33,680
substitute, we'll add like
Tylenol, which some reason is a

861
00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:35,680
nice adjunct for a lot of
people.

862
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,680
Tylenol works extremely well
with me.

863
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,160
I try to be very aware of how
much I take because I don't want

864
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,680
it to ever become a problem.
I know a lot of people can't

865
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:48,960
take it, or they've taken so
much of it for such a long time

866
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,480
that is, you know, destroying
their liver and that they can't

867
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,480
use it anymore at all.
And it is always been a very

868
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,400
effective pain reliever, just as
a complimentary.

869
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:03,080
So yeah, I, I use Tylenol all
the time for a variety of pains

870
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:05,200
that.
So for me, instead of taking

871
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,240
extra kratom, which won't do
anything, that's when Tylenol.

872
00:50:08,240 --> 00:50:10,800
But I know lots of people that
can take extra kratom and it

873
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,920
works great.
Yeah, and with Tylenol, you, you

874
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,240
brought up another great point.
You know, you take too much

875
00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:19,280
Tylenol and we all know what can
happen.

876
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,080
You can have liver dysfunction
or liver failure.

877
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:26,440
Yeah, I've all seen in in the
literature that that's true for

878
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:30,080
kratom.
I have not heard of any of that

879
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:31,560
in all the literature I've
reviewed.

880
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,040
You've probably reviewed more
than me being in the medical

881
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,160
profession.
But I've yet to see like, oh,

882
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:40,520
this person had to go get a
liver transplant, which happens

883
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,200
when you take too much Tylenol
and people have to get a new

884
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,560
liver.
That is not an uncommon thing.

885
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:49,360
I haven't seen anything with
like some kind of organ failure

886
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,680
because of kratom.
Nope, with any organs.

887
00:50:53,240 --> 00:50:56,800
No, and again, we don't want
Tylenol removed either.

888
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,600
No, we don't, right?
But you can go into any store

889
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,160
and buy it.
The fact that you can end up in

890
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:07,720
prison in certain, you know,
certain cities or parishes for

891
00:51:07,720 --> 00:51:11,560
kratom is insane.
Insane.

892
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,080
And this is one of the reason
we're so passionate.

893
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:17,520
I think it's just so unfair.
It is it.

894
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,160
It really is.
This plank is demonized so much

895
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:24,240
and right now is been becoming a
real issue happening in

896
00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:26,080
Louisiana.
We keep hearing about in those

897
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:29,680
different parishes.
There are suburbs of in Chicago

898
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,400
that have banned the sale.
They didn't haven't made it

899
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:34,240
illegal to possess.
They're banned.

900
00:51:34,240 --> 00:51:37,840
They've been banning the sale.
It makes no sense to me when the

901
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,600
states were you know, it's
federally legal, right?

902
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:43,680
But you know, some of these,
what some of these states did,

903
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:48,640
these six states were what some
of them did is because they were

904
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,360
trying to ban it federally in
2016.

905
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,840
It failed miserably, but they
tried to get it banned.

906
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,000
And so some of these states were
like, let's be proactive.

907
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,600
Let's just go ahead and ban it
in our state because they're

908
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:04,600
about to ban it in the whole US.
That makes no sense to me at

909
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:08,480
all, at all.
And why would you be like, our

910
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,400
state should just go ahead and
ban this product because they're

911
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,480
getting ready to ban it in the
whole for the whole country?

912
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:14,440
Yeah, that would.
Why?

913
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,080
Real travesty will take their
lives.

914
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:22,040
People will commit suicide from
being in intractable pain and

915
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,200
acceptable.
It's not.

916
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:31,120
It's not opening my big mouth.
I will because pain, whether

917
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:34,840
it's emotional, psychological or
physical, when it gets to that

918
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:37,880
point, people will off
themselves.

919
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:42,280
It happens all the time and it's
just not acceptable.

920
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:45,240
It's not OK and it scares me.
Yeah.

921
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,000
And I know you've heard all
kinds of stories, people with

922
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,760
intractable pain.
I've seen people with

923
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:56,720
intractable depression who have
been saved by using either plant

924
00:52:56,720 --> 00:52:58,840
medicines or other stronger
things.

925
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:03,000
And we owe it.
We owe it to people to do the

926
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,600
best we can and to help them
with their pain.

927
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:10,560
Whatever the source is.
It's not OK for doctors to say,

928
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:14,520
well I'm afraid that I'm in
trouble so I won't write you the

929
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,520
script anymore.
I don't know what kratom is,

930
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:22,240
therefore it's not valid.
Those days are over.

931
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:25,560
Yeah, this is such an amazing
conversation, John.

932
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,280
I feel like we could talk for
hours and hours and hours.

933
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:29,600
We've been talking almost an
hour.

934
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:31,360
I can't believe it.
I think I'll have to have you

935
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,080
come back on and we just, you
know, like make this into a

936
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,640
series because I feel like we're
just barely scratching the

937
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:40,080
surface with the.
Yeah, I love listening to you as

938
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:41,400
well.
I really do.

939
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,480
This has just been a wonderful
thing you've created and I thank

940
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:48,920
you so much for having me back
on because it helps me release

941
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:50,800
some of that frustration that I
feel.

942
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,320
Yeah, well, we'll definitely
have you back on.

943
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:55,720
We'll, we'll just keep talking
about this because I, I feel

944
00:53:55,720 --> 00:53:57,640
like there's just so much more
to discuss.

945
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:01,280
But we're already at an hour.
I, I think we covered a lot in

946
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,000
one session.
This has been so great.

947
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,640
Thank you for hanging out and
spending time and we will

948
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,000
definitely do it again.
My pleasure, Matt.

949
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:13,720
Anytime.
Thank you for listening.

950
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:17,560
You can get more information at
kratomstoriespodcast.com,

951
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:19,960
including show notes from this
episode.