Ep 55: Jennifer Taft: Reclaiming Life with Kratom for Rheumatoid Arthritis

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Sometimes capsules don't work
for people.

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I think it really helped that
even though I was going to a

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smoke shop, the smoke shop was
knowledgeable about strains in

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fact, and she, you know, had me
try different types.

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We did Reds and I didn't notice
a real change till I started

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doing the powder and noticing
that I had to go up in dosage

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because I was not taking enough.
That's part of the problem with

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why maybe the capsules didn't
work too, is I'd have to take a

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lot of the capsules.
Welcome to Kratom Stories, a

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weekly podcast where we share
stories of how this amazing

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plant has changed our lives.
I'm your host, Madeleine Sklar.

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Each week I'll bring you a new
episode featuring interviews

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with experts, advocates, and
everyday people who've

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experienced the benefits of
kratom first hand.

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Join me as we dive deeper into
the world of this botanical

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plant.
The Kratom Stories Podcast is

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presented solely for educational
purposes.

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Neither the podcast nor its host
promote or endorse the use of

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kratom, a substance not yet
regulated or approved by the

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FDA.
The views and opinions expressed

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by guests are theirs alone and
do not necessarily reflect those

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of the host or the podcast.
The content is not intended as a

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substitute for professional
medical advice, diagnosis, or

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treatment.
Always seek the advice of your

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physician or other qualified
healthcare provider with any

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questions regarding the use of
kratom.

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Before we dive into today's
episode, I want to let you know

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about Kratom Real Talk.
It's a new community for

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positive, uplifting discussions
about the power of whole leaf

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kratom.
If you'd like to be part of the

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conversation and learn more
about this plate or contribute

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your knowledge, go to
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I'm here with Jennifer Taft, a
lovely lady I've met on TikTok.

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And I know I keep saying this
lately at just about every intro

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of this podcast, but I am
meeting so many amazing people

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on TikTok.
I never would have thought that

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would be where I'd be connecting
with so many people and I'm just

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so thrilled.
It seems to me that TikTok is a

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great place to connect with
other like minded kratom

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consumers as well as people
learning about kratom and

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looking for information.
Jennifer, I am so glad we met on

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there.
Thank you coming on the podcast

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to Share your story.
No problem, excited to share.

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So let's start with you telling
us a little bit about yourself

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and life before kratom came
along.

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OK I AM 54 years old.
I got diagnosed with rheumatoid

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arthritis when my daughter was
four and she's now 23.

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So that's, do that math.
I struggled with the normal

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bumps and lumps of RA.
You go through the whole finding

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a rheumatologist, which I still
haven't found a really great fit

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trying all these new drugs.
They, you know, try biologics,

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they try different things going
on steroids for to reduce pain.

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And about, I'd say about 10
years ago, the pain got to the

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point of I need to do something
different.

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I'm adult.
I acknowledge that I'm going to

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have this disease forever.
My body is just going to get

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worse.
So I had gone through, you know,

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the normal bumps of being a pain
patient.

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The try this, try going through,
you know, we'll send you to get

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different exercises to help try,
you know, taking this

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supplement.
Try the whole thing until I

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reached the point where it was,
we first started me on a low

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dose of tramadol.
That was kind of the adventure.

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And then we switched to an
opiate pain medication.

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And I've been on that for about
10 years on and off.

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I am lucky because unlike other
people, I did not end up going

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to kratom.
Because of that, I got cut off

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from my doctor.
I went to kratom because I

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wanted some control over me and
my pain.

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I feel like I have to
acknowledge that it exists, but

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I also need to find something
that makes it a little more so

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you can get through the day.
So that's kind of how I stumbled

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into using kratom.
So you've been in pain

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management, you said, about 10
years now?

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About 10 years I don't first was
in a pain management clinic This

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was pre the 2018 changes of
guidelines.

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I felt like I was being over
prescribed I know that's weird

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most people don't have that
concern.

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At the same time I had found a
new GP and I went to him with

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this concern.
I'm like listen I I know I'm

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going to need opiates but I feel
like this other place is giving

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me way more than I need.
I'm turning into a zombie.

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And also to the concern of the
more you take the higher your

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tolerance becomes.
And he switched me to a

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different opiate that worked for
years and it has worked but we

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have had difficulty with
breakthrough pain and other

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things.
And also to tolerance.

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I get concerned that when I
really need those opiates to

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work, I will have too high of a
tolerance for them.

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So I have used kratom in a
different way than other people.

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I use it on my moderate pain
days or the days that, you know,

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not feeling great, but I don't
really need to take that pill.

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I analyze it, which has been
great because I can take the

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kratom.
I take it in the morning, in the

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afternoon.
I find it lasts about six hours,

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which is longer actually than my
pain medication.

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And it's not something you
notice helping.

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It's like all of a sudden you're
oh wait, I'm not hurting as

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much.
It's not like I know people are

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like, oh, you 4.
I don't get a high off of it.

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I get a huh, OK, so I'm not
feeling pain.

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The other thing that I found is
helpful is with rheumatoid

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arthritis and a lot of chronic
illnesses, you struggle with

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fatigue like it is just can't
explain it to people.

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It's like having the flu 24/7.
And I've also found that it is

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helpful for that as well as it
gives me a little bit of a like

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a cup of coffee boost.
Like what coffee should do

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doesn't do it to me anymore, but
and I've discovered ways to take

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it that are tolerable.
So what I do is a little

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different.
I take it on my moderate to mild

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pain days and my opiates are put
forward.

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I really need them.
And that's been great because

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I've gone down from how many
pills a day to only like

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probably once a week do I need
them.

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And that's even questionable as
I try kratom first.

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See if that works.
There's another thing in your

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toolbox.
That is so interesting.

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So really your opioids is more
of an as needed on like really

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bad pain days.
Really bad, yeah.

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Wow, that is so interesting and
like and you said like about

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once a week.
Maybe if even, but one of the

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interesting things I found is my
last.

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I have flares with RA where it's
like I can't walk, my joints are

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really bad.
I get put on steroids for about

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a week and 1/2 and this time I
tried I've been sent some white

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and because the vendor I use I
don't know if I'm allowed to

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mention vendors.
Oh.

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Jordan at Creative New Hope.
New Hope Botanicals.

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Oh he's great.
He's one of my favorite vendors.

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Shout out to them, they are
amazing.

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I, they'd sent a little sample
of the white and I had tried it

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and I'm like, Oh my gosh, this
works better than because when I

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go through a flare, the doctor
normally gives me morphine,

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long, long acting.
And because just that way I'm

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not, you know, constantly taking
pain medication, but the white

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actually worked better than my
long acting morphine.

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I was actually able to make it
through the flare without ending

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up taking it.
So, you know, my doctor's

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supportive.
He's like, we'll have to do labs

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and, you know, check your kidney
and liver, which I do anyway.

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And he's been awesome about it.
He doesn't, he didn't know much

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about it.
He's been learning slowly.

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He's like, you'll have to keep
telling me because if this works

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for you, you know, I have other
patients that maybe this could

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be helpful for them as well,
especially in the environment

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where doctors feel like they
can't prescribe.

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Yeah, it is getting worse and
worse.

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I mean, it was bad when I got
dropped from pain management

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2019 and here we are 2024 almost
into 2025 now and it's just all

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you hear about on social media.
The people that are either being

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dropped from pain management or
the doctor scaling back their

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meds and they're being like half
or more and people are

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struggling and trying to figure
out what else can they take is

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so refreshing to hear that a
doctor, your doctor is good with

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this because so many times
doctors have never heard of it

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or they go Google it, see some
of the misinformation and

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propaganda about kratom and
automatically say this is bad.

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You cannot be taking this and
without really educating

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themselves.
So it's nice to hear that your

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doctor is on board with us.
Mine is.

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Really good about really
learning new things along the

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way.
For example, for a long, long

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time, we were don't ask, don't
tell about cannabis because that

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also was something that we tried
because we went from, I live in

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Oregon, so it's a legal thing in
Oregon.

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But one of the bad things that
happened was when cannabis

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became recreational and
legalized, there was a lot less

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knowledge and bud tenders and
doctors and just try that for

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your pain.
And it doesn't work for all

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pain.
I think sometimes in legal

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states, they tend to, well, try
that, you know, you will have

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that instead of an opiate.
So we tried that too.

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Didn't find great success with
it.

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But he's also been really good
about, you know, communication

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is a big thing.
I mean, I, I keep telling him,

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don't you ever retire?
I'm holding you hostage.

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He talks about it from the
doctor angle of how frustrating

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it is the new, a lot of the
guidelines and the pushback

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because it's affecting his
patients.

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I mean, he has a cancer patient
that he was telling me about

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that he feels frustrated because
he's like, I know this man is in

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more pain than I can prescribe.
And then I send him out into the

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world and these pain clinics are
a hoax.

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He's like, they just, he doesn't
need an injection.

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He has cancer.
He's 75 years old.

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He's not going to, like, turn
into a street addict.

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I mean, so yeah, it's been a
learning journey.

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Yeah.
How did you first learn about

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kratom?
I have a friend through social

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media who does harm reduction
and she started taking it

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because she didn't want to have
to do supplicate or Suboxone or

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the one you drank, I can't
remember the name of it, and it

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was really helpful to her.
I had a friend who lives in

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Colorado who is also a pain
patient who had mentioned that

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she'd been finding a lot of
relief through it and also

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TikTok.
I stumbled into it on TikTok and

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other people having success with
it and I'm like, hey, might as

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well try it.
I mean, it's not going to do any

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harm.
And at first it wasn't really

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working well.
But then again, I was buying it

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at your local smoke shop wasn't
great quality.

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The big difference between smoke
shop and good quality kratom,

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huge difference.
But it was kind of starting out.

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I had a hint that this, hey,
this is helping a little.

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So that's when I switched to a
real vendor and that has been

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much improved as far as figuring
out what my body needs.

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I mean, what works and what
dosage too.

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It's that's the hard part of
figuring that out.

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It's trial and error in the
beginning because it's figuring

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out which kind of kratom, you
know, with the different colors,

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the red, green and white, Some
people respond different to the

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different ones, whereas some
people can consume them all and

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it it doesn't, you know, have
have any, any issues with it not

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working and then figuring out
that dose.

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I always tell people in the
beginning like trial and error,

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take your time.
You might it might be magic the

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first time you take it.
Or like in my case, it took, it

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took a little bit of time
because the Reds don't work on

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me and I don't have my pain at
all, which is so surprising

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because everybody was telling me
in the beginning, like, that's

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the one you want because you say
you suffer from chronic pain.

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I'm like, yeah.
And then when they said red, I'm

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like, I'm all these people told
me red.

225
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,680
So I bought a bunch of red and I
would, I just was like, why is

226
00:13:43,680 --> 00:13:46,120
this not working?
And then I tried the white,

227
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,840
which was way too much for like
maybe too jittery, like too much

228
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:51,960
caffeine.
So I was like, no, then I tried

229
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:53,560
the green one.
I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is

230
00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:55,640
amazing.
Where have you been all my life?

231
00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,560
This is like the one.
And when it's working too, it's

232
00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:03,320
like very subtle.
Not it's not.

233
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,640
It's like all of a sudden I have
a little more energy and when

234
00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,720
I'm getting up and down, my
knees are not hurting as much.

235
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,160
It doesn't like it's not a
Pansea that is going to take

236
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:21,000
care of every pain you have, but
it is definitely it does compete

237
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:25,680
with taking a harder medication
as far as work.

238
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,720
And I the other thing too is I
found it lasts longer in my

239
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,480
body.
I'm a rapid processor with

240
00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:36,600
opiates too.
So if this lasts about six hours

241
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:38,720
reliably, I can.
I did.

242
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,120
The same thing, yeah, and.
About It takes about 20 minutes

243
00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:46,440
to like, work.
And then I feel so much

244
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,840
different, so much better.
I'm able to, you know, clean my

245
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,120
house.
I know it's the glamour.

246
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,520
It's so funny because people
assume paying patients, you

247
00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,040
know, we, we want to take
something that makes us sit and

248
00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:03,560
relax and I'm like, no, I want
something where I can get my

249
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,280
life.
I where I'm, you know, not

250
00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,920
hitting this wall at 4:30
everyday where I'm just useless.

251
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:16,160
I want to have some of my
quality of life back.

252
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,360
Normal stuff.
I want to go to the grocery

253
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,480
store.
I know it's like people take

254
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,440
that for granted.
And it used to be like such an

255
00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,040
undertaking to like, OK, I go to
the grocery store.

256
00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:30,800
What am I?
Am I buying something that's

257
00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:32,160
heavy?
I've been bringing my son with

258
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:32,720
me.
Like like.

259
00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:39,160
You have to think of every like
family, like for example,

260
00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:44,680
holidays, Christmas, like when I
didn't have access to anything

261
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,800
was awful because I felt like
crap.

262
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,320
And you're supposed to be going
to buy gifts for everybody.

263
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,760
And I'm just in a mood because I
ain't hurt.

264
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,560
Pain turns you into a different
person it.

265
00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,160
Really.
It really does and I don't think

266
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:07,480
most people acknowledge how much
it makes things very hard and

267
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,000
makes your quality of life.
I mean, that's why one of the

268
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:16,360
risks for not treating pain is
suicide, because many people who

269
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:21,080
have chronic long term pain
just, you know, there's no light

270
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,800
at the end of the tunnel.
They're not feeling like there's

271
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,640
anything that's going to give
them their life back.

272
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,720
And you can't really tell other
people because they don't get

273
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,280
it.
I think I've just gotten within

274
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,000
the past couple years, my
family's finally at the point

275
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,240
where they get it, but they
still struggle with it like

276
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,240
that.
I can't plan stuff after after

277
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:47,280
430, like just don't include me
because I won't be able to do

278
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,240
it.
And that's gotten over time

279
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,320
much, much more of a serious
matter in life.

280
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,840
But yeah, I think people
underrate the fact how much it

281
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,880
really makes you have to
strategize your life.

282
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,960
Yeah exactly and since I started
kratom 5 1/2 years ago, I'm not

283
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:08,040
in that world anymore.
It is so refreshing to be back

284
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:13,680
to the self I was before living
with chronic pain where I can be

285
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,200
more productive.
I don't have to like, overthink.

286
00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:17,599
What am I buying at the grocery
store?

287
00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:21,000
Can I do this by myself?
And I'm like you, I'm a rapid

288
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,200
processor with opioids.
I was to the point where I was

289
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,800
popping my Percocets like every
three hours.

290
00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:29,720
I was taking Oxycontin a couple
times a day.

291
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,600
I know it's a long acting, but
they weren't very long acting on

292
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,160
me.
Me too, I have the same problem.

293
00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:36,160
Yeah.
Yeah.

294
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,520
And some of us are are built
that way and we can't help it.

295
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,480
But then when you get to the
point where you feel like the

296
00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,240
meds just aren't helping,
they're not as effective

297
00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:48,880
building up the tolerance like
you were talking about earlier,

298
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,960
it gets so frustrating.
It's like, where do you go from

299
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,800
here?
And how amazing to discover a

300
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:59,400
plant this kratom where just
like with you, I can go six

301
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,480
hours and be basically pain
free.

302
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,720
I feel so much better.
I get that little boost of

303
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,320
energy like you're talking
about, kind of like a cup of

304
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:12,880
coffee and I just can do things
again is so nice.

305
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,560
And a big part of it, too, is
having control over yourself.

306
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:18,760
Yeah.
That's one of the things I like

307
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,480
about kratom is I, you know, I
am in control.

308
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:28,360
Nobody else is.
Nobody is in control of what I

309
00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:32,800
take.
There is no demonizing mostly

310
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,200
for what I take.
And there's no not that

311
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,600
judgement because opiates, man,
part of the hard thing is when

312
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,360
you're a pain patient is like
the pharmacy dealing with

313
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:49,800
pharmacists that have judgments,
dealing with, you know, other

314
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:54,520
doctors who have judgments.
I've been very fortunate that I

315
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,120
have not experienced that.
But other thing too, like you

316
00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:02,840
said, the tolerant thing is huge
because I ran into that.

317
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:07,520
I've had my knees redone and
when I had my second knee

318
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,600
redone, I ended up having to
stay in the hospital for four

319
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,120
days because we could not
control my pain.

320
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,400
That's when we found out the
rapid processor part is that

321
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:21,480
just I was on heavy duty stuff
and that kind of scared me a

322
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,720
little bit because I'm like my
doctor and I have talked about

323
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:29,000
like he's like, we need to have
the ability that in your back

324
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,320
pocket.
If I need to prescribe more, I

325
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,560
can.
But when you're at this level,

326
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,800
there's not much more room to
go.

327
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,720
So that was a big factor in me
changing as well as the control.

328
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:47,200
But also to the I know I'm going
to need something in my life

329
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:51,760
forever, and I don't want to
build up such a tolerance that

330
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:56,280
when I need that medication that
in my toolbox, it's not going to

331
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,320
work for me anymore.
Yeah, and that's something we go

332
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,760
through and pain management.
I remember there was a time

333
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,720
where the meds weren't working
very well.

334
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,160
And I remember just like, being
in tears with the doctor.

335
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,000
Like, what else can we be doing?
Because this is just not enough.

336
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,640
I keep, you know, having these
tolerance issues.

337
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,720
So that was at one point
switched to the fentanyl patch

338
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,960
before fentanyl was a big, big
deal like in the news and.

339
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:24,240
What I remember this is probably
about 12 years ago, they were

340
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,240
like 3 different levels of the,
I don't know if it's different

341
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,640
now fentanyl patch.
You had that lower 120.

342
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,160
Five 50s and then hundreds?
Yeah.

343
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,720
So we started with the lowest
one of being a rapid processor

344
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:37,760
like you.
I remember the doctor saying

345
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:43,480
this is normally 3 days and he
goes, you'll probably see how

346
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,240
long you can go, but you'll
probably be two days.

347
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,640
Sure enough, barely two days.
I mean like a day and a half.

348
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:53,520
And I did it and the pain relief
was pretty good, but I had a lot

349
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,400
of bad side effects, really bad
side effects with that.

350
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:02,640
But here's what happened though,
Jennifer, not too long in, it

351
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,480
just didn't work anymore.
And the doctor's like, well,

352
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,600
let's do the next level up.
So I'm like, OK, go to that

353
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,600
second patch level and OK, this
is working.

354
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,160
OK, OK.
And still taking opioids for

355
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:14,800
breakthrough as well.
And.

356
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,160
It didn't last long.
And then the doctor's like,

357
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,440
well, I can prescribe you that
high.

358
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,440
I'm like, wait a minute though,
that next level dose is the

359
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,880
highest you can go.
It's like, what if I get to the

360
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:29,800
point that doesn't work just
like what you're saying?

361
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,040
Where else do you go?
And this is a scary prospect,

362
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,000
especially when we're not really
that old.

363
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,800
And it's like, and I'm like you
like, I'll have to be taking

364
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,120
something for the rest of my
life for my chronic pain.

365
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:46,240
And it's scary that like,
there's so many limitations with

366
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,360
these meds.
I had the same experience with

367
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,920
patches.
And that's when I switched to my

368
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,920
GP when we went to the 50.
And he was like, well, we could

369
00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,080
do the 100.
And I was still taking, you

370
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,200
know, breakthrough pain
medication.

371
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,120
But the other thing, too, is I
didn't realize I was a zombie.

372
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,960
I didn't think I was.
But like, the feedback from my

373
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:16,640
family was my daughters were
younger, you know, they'd be

374
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,840
like, are you OK?
Can you?

375
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,440
And there was a concern of, you
know, I had to stop doing

376
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,680
certain aspects at work.
I used to be a preschool teacher

377
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:31,000
and I used to drive the bus.
So when that happened, I had to

378
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,960
stop driving the bus.
I was, you know, I told my

379
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,600
director, I'm on opiates.
I can't be driving anymore.

380
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,800
And I had such problems with it
that I ended up losing my job

381
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:49,120
while trying to figure out the
whole what dosage works because

382
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,920
I was not functioning.
I didn't realize I wasn't

383
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,560
functioning because you don't
know that when it's you.

384
00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:02,200
But that was like a big wake up
call of I know I, I, I need to

385
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,880
do something else.
And also to the fear of, you

386
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,560
know, if that doesn't work,
where do you go?

387
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:13,600
I mean, but this was before they
changed a lot of guidelines

388
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:15,960
because now like nobody would
give you that.

389
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,320
Oh, right.
Yeah, times have changed with

390
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,880
guidelines, that's for sure.
Wow.

391
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,480
So let's go back to when you
first started kratom.

392
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,200
So you said you initially were
buying it at a smoke shop.

393
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,400
How long was it between like
you're trying it from the smoke

394
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,160
shop until you started realizing
like oh I should get this

395
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,320
online, get better quality.
It was about a month because I

396
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:42,680
had run into, I had stumbled
into Jordan's video about the

397
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:48,080
differences between that and
smoke shop and that heavy metals

398
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,760
etcetera.
But also to the smoke shop.

399
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:56,760
I went to the lady knew actually
a lot about kratom because she

400
00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:01,760
is from Thailand I believe and
she was has used it herself.

401
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,640
She pointed me in the direction
to there's a certain brand that

402
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,720
they sold that was Oregon
produced that was a little

403
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,960
better than the rest.
But she'd also said you should

404
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,480
find a vendor online.
Don't want to lose a customer,

405
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:20,400
but you should try this because
and there's a shop in Portland

406
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,200
that sells kratom, but it's
very, I, I don't know if you've

407
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:29,800
ever been to Portland.
It's very niche in a very, very

408
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,680
popular part of town.
And the price of it is very

409
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:40,440
pricey compared to Jordan and
his kratom business.

410
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:45,040
So then I started ordering it
online and was like, wow, this

411
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,000
is a big difference.
And same, I went through trying

412
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:53,920
different, you know, Reds,
greens, whites now, and I found

413
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:55,960
different ones have different
effects.

414
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:01,000
They all kind of work, but
there's some that just work a

415
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,040
little bit better than others.
And then I discovered how to

416
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,960
drink it and not want to throw
up.

417
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,440
How's that?
Tell me how what you figured out

418
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,800
with that 'cause I know a lot of
people have a hard time drinking

419
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,920
it.
Fair Day or Fair Life makes a

420
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,680
chocolate milk that has lots of
protein in it.

421
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,040
I do it in that and it tastes
like a milkshake.

422
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,320
Oh wow.
I mean, it's so much better.

423
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,920
You can barely taste the taste
with chocolate milk because

424
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,280
before I was doing orange juice
and that works.

425
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,880
That first of all, when they
started, it was water and I

426
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:38,000
couldn't.
Yeah.

427
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,280
Oh gosh.
Like you gotta have juice or

428
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,280
something else in there for some
flavor.

429
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,960
I can't imagine.
Dry man, I can't.

430
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,280
Oh yeah, talk and wash.
I can't do that either.

431
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,360
There's no way.
Respect.

432
00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:53,480
I get that powdery feeling and
it gives my gag reflex.

433
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,120
Yeah, exactly.
Not good, but I have found the

434
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,360
Fair Life chocolate milk works
really well 'cause I am getting

435
00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:04,480
some protein and it tastes
seriously even makes the little

436
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,280
lumps taste like chocolate, like
a milkshake.

437
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,240
So that's worked really well.
I love that.

438
00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:14,560
See, OK, so when I first
started, you know, I tried the

439
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,960
capsules, but I just they
weren't really working and

440
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,320
people said, oh, powder is
better, just, you know, drink

441
00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:21,920
it.
And so I did the everybody kept

442
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,560
saying orange juice.
You want to add the orange juice

443
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,240
because with the citrus it helps
the alkaloids work better.

444
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,440
So, you know, I do, I make my
little swamp water kratom tea

445
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,640
and I did the orange juice and I
got way better relief when I did

446
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,680
it that way, But it tasted so
bad.

447
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,600
So I tried chocolate milk.
I remember somebody in the

448
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,120
Facebook group said, oh, try
chocolate milk and it didn't

449
00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:45,480
taste nearly as bad.
But it didn't work as well for

450
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,720
me with my pain as it did when I
did it with orange juice.

451
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,160
And it's so interesting.
And that's why I always tell

452
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,400
people in the beginning, keep a
journal and kind of keep track

453
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,840
of your doses and what you're
taking and how it makes you

454
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,360
feel, because then it's really
easy to look at and go, OK, here

455
00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:03,160
are the patterns I see.
But I just remember the

456
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:04,840
chocolate like I was like oh
chocolate milk.

457
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,320
This didn't taste too bad but it
didn't last as long for me.

458
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,600
My pain came back way faster.
It just wasn't the same and I.

459
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,920
I'm curious now, I'm going to
have to try doing the difference

460
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,440
and see you if I know any
difference.

461
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,760
But I also wonder, is that
similar, the alkaloid factor, is

462
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:26,160
that similar to like with
cannabis, there's terpenes and

463
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,880
certain terpenes can make your
experience different.

464
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,960
Like for example, mango with a
sativa tends to give you more

465
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:40,920
energy and mango has the
terpenes that make it interact.

466
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,960
That's curious.
I, I would love to like actually

467
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:50,720
meet a physician that does plant
medicine just to have that

468
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,960
experience of talking to
somebody of how it works.

469
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,760
How does it literally work
because I think it needs more

470
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,240
study because it works for
people for extremely different

471
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,920
reasons.
Like if this is a great thing to

472
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,200
be using wall your harm
reduction while you're trying to

473
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:14,360
get off other drugs.
It should be more known for that

474
00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:19,960
community, especially because
right now your choices are that

475
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:27,360
you're tied to dosing every day
or the Sublocade or Suboxone,

476
00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:30,680
which is great that we have
access, but there's other people

477
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,520
out there that don't want that
control.

478
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,760
So like it's great seeing some
people that have used it for

479
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,200
addiction reasons too.
I actually recommended to my

480
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,000
daughter because she was
struggling with alcohol.

481
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,880
She's six months sober, but I
mentioned Kratom to her.

482
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,400
I'm like, maybe it could be
helpful for you because they put

483
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,040
her on a medication to, you
know, make it so that you don't

484
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,480
want to drink.
So she actually has been trying

485
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,280
it too and finding it helpful
for that urge.

486
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,640
That's what a lot of people say.
A lot of people say that they

487
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,920
don't want to drink it make like
I know some people that take

488
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,360
kratom specifically for chronic
pain and like you know what?

489
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,680
I don't ever have any feelings
about drinking.

490
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,800
I'm not interested in drinking.
They just don't drink anymore.

491
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,960
And then some people
specifically use it or stopping

492
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,880
their alcohol intake.
And it's just amazing that this

493
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,640
plant is like a pharmacy, you
know, it just, it helps in so

494
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,000
many ways for people.
I love that.

495
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:35,120
I just worry that it is big
pharma now going to demonize it

496
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,640
because, you know, we don't want
people to have access to

497
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,480
something that they can fix
themselves with, right?

498
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,160
Or, you know, they're just some
states making it illegal.

499
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,880
Like, what in the heck?
Somebody's being arrested for

500
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,240
what?
For kratom?

501
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,760
Yeah, give me a break.
It's crazy, but you know, all

502
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,880
that was from misinformation and
propaganda cause in 2016 the FDA

503
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,520
was just hell bent on getting
kratom scheduled one, making it

504
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,840
illegal in the whole, you know,
on a federal level.

505
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,200
It didn't work because they
can't prove that it's dangerous.

506
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,880
But apparently a handful of
states decided like, oh, they're

507
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,520
getting ready to schedule this
schedule 1 and make it illegal.

508
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,760
Let's just go ahead and make it
illegal in our state.

509
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,440
And it's so crazy that happened
and all these years have passed

510
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,480
and they haven't undone that.
Like there's still illegal.

511
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,960
Propaganda.
Yeah, I mean that honestly.

512
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:38,040
It's same with the with like
opiates, the propaganda is just,

513
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,120
you know, working against you
because everybody wants to

514
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,920
believe that if you need this,
you're an addict because you

515
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:53,400
need this medication and it's
not the way it works and we're

516
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,720
not the ones who are overdosing.
You've done study after study

517
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,040
and found that the reason that
you are having overdoses is

518
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:03,280
because of St.
Drugs.

519
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,960
Also too, the reason you're
having overdoses is you're

520
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:12,240
cutting people off from any
access to medication and then

521
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,800
they're going to the street,
which is a huge problem here.

522
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,480
And I've actually talked to I do
harm reduction in our homeless

523
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:25,240
community and hand out Narcan
when they can and do other

524
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,720
things like when it's hot, hand
out water popsicles, that kind

525
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,600
of stuff, mutual aid.
And I have talked to a lot of

526
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:37,120
fentanyl users and a lot of them
were normal people.

527
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:44,120
And then they just wanted access
to something that made them not

528
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,640
hurt.
And slowly they ended up losing

529
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:52,480
everything because they are now
addicted to this medication, not

530
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,560
medication, but St. drug that's
being mixed with all sorts of

531
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:01,240
other bad things.
And a lot of the people on the

532
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:06,240
street, too, are elderly that
have been, you know, Social

533
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,000
Security.
They can't afford somewhere to

534
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,240
live.
Plus they've, you know, started

535
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,600
being an path of addiction.
So yeah.

536
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,600
But it would be nice to have
more people know about kratom

537
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:25,640
and it to be more of something
that is easily known about

538
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,280
because it's kind of one of
those things that you stumble

539
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:29,400
into.
Right.

540
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:35,080
And it and I like the fact that
you are, you and other people

541
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,800
are making an awareness about
that.

542
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,320
Hey, there's this plant out
there that you have access to

543
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,200
that could really make a
difference in your life.

544
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:50,400
And like you said to TikTok has
been a huge part of that for how

545
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,720
much it gets demonized.
There are so many good things on

546
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:59,680
this app that have really
changed people's lives.

547
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,120
It's amazing, like I still am
just in shock with how many

548
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,080
people I've talked to on TikTok
and able to help them learn more

549
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,240
about kratom so that they can
get their life back through, you

550
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,520
know, how what they've been
dealing with, with their chronic

551
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,400
pain and being in pain
management.

552
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,960
And it's just so sad that the
medical community is just

553
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,160
failing all of us as pain
patients and and they just don't

554
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,760
seem to care.
I mean, I, I was going to go try

555
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,680
to find a drug dealer.
We shouldn't have to.

556
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,040
We should not lose access to our
meds for our chronic pain, our

557
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,360
legitimate chronic pain, and
have no other choice than to go

558
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,800
to the streets.
And thank God I found kratom

559
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,040
when I did because I mean, I was
seriously like, OK, where am I

560
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,080
going to find a drug dealer?
Like I was at that place.

561
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,200
Like well, I got.
I got to figure out something.

562
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,640
Well, pain drives you there.
Yeah.

563
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,280
I mean, you're not a rational
thinking person anymore.

564
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:55,080
You're just, it's like almost
like an animal that you're going

565
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,160
by instinct of and it's the
street drugs are accessible any

566
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,120
corner under $5.
Take.

567
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,360
Your chances, yeah, it's bad.
And I think the medical

568
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:12,719
community also too, I think
there's a lot of PTSD out there

569
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:18,880
as far as I think COVID really
did a lot of harm mentally to

570
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:24,760
physicians, nurses, patients.
I think the trauma that they

571
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,679
experienced is part of the
reason why we are in this

572
00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:35,199
situation is that they were so
demonized during COVID that I

573
00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:38,520
think they lost a little piece
of that empathy anymore.

574
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,560
And the focus has been so much
on them being bad.

575
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,040
So if you find a good doctor,
make sure you support them,

576
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:48,880
right?
Yeah.

577
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,920
But I, I think that that's
definitely part of it.

578
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,760
And I think one of the things
too was pain and kratom and

579
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,400
TikTok is loneliness.
Because when you're chronic

580
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:04,760
pain, you hideaway, you stop
doing things, you stop going

581
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:09,480
places or just being disabled,
you don't Co workers to talk to

582
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,080
anymore.
You're talking to the dog every

583
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,200
day.
TikTok has given you a community

584
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,600
of people that you have access
to have social interaction with.

585
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,080
And I think that that's very
important.

586
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,120
As much as it gets demonized,
there's a certain community of

587
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:32,040
people that if TikTok goes away,
I worry for them because this is

588
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,480
the only interaction that
they're getting.

589
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:37,920
It's a lifeline.
It's a lifeline.

590
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:43,440
Especially if you are disabled
and at home alone, you know,

591
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,040
living in rural Minnesota
somewhere, you know, it's not

592
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,400
like you have a whole lot of
people to choose to and people

593
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,600
don't get you because.
Right.

594
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,320
One of the things with chronic
pain too, is you find out who

595
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,120
your friends really are.
Oh, absolutely.

596
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,680
Who your die hard going to be
there people are and you find

597
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,920
out very quickly because that
people stop inviting you to

598
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:12,040
things you're all of a sudden
not on the guest list.

599
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,080
I've been really lucky.
I actually found for social

600
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:20,280
media.
I was in an RA support group and

601
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,240
there was this woman named
Kimberly that we just like hit

602
00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:27,600
it off like everything.
We just, we would chat online.

603
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,600
We just made friends and we
didn't realize that we lived two

604
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,040
blocks from each other.
Really.

605
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,440
Not even recently, which makes
me sad.

606
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,960
But yeah, we we realized we
lived around the corner from

607
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,040
each other.
Like we have to meet.

608
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,280
And she's been my best friend
for 12 years.

609
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,640
And the nice thing is, is she
also has the same issues as me,

610
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,560
so I don't feel like I'm, you
know, tiny violining.

611
00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:59,480
I can call her and say be
truthful of how bad the day is

612
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,600
and she can talk me down.
That's what's so amazing with

613
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:08,360
social media is being able to
find like minded people and even

614
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,360
better when it turns out they
live right by you.

615
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,040
So that's very cool.
I want to go back to when you

616
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:17,000
first started kratom.
Was it something that worked for

617
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,640
you right away or how much trial
and error did it take?

618
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,320
You said you started with
capsules, then you switched.

619
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,520
The powder capsules, they
weren't doing much, but through

620
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,680
video on YouTube I access that
sometimes capsules don't work

621
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,240
for people.
I think it really helped that

622
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:36,320
even though I was going to a
smoke shop, the smoke shop was

623
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:41,520
knowledgeable about strains, in
fact, and she, you know, had me

624
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:46,320
try different types.
We did Reds and I didn't notice

625
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,320
a real change till I started
doing the powder and noticing

626
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,920
that I had to go up in dosage
because I was not taking enough.

627
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,840
That's part of the problem with
why maybe the capsules didn't

628
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,840
work too.
I'd have to take a lot of the

629
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,400
capsules.
They'd be over also too more

630
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:10,680
expensive if I took capsules
because I do about 5 teaspoons.

631
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:12,440
No.
What is it?

632
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:18,160
About 5 grams.
About 5 grams and mix that up

633
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,680
and that seems to be the perfect
amount.

634
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,480
That seems to be what gets me to
six hours.

635
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,800
And then, you know, she told me
to mix it with orange juice.

636
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,080
And so at least there was
somebody in real time too, that

637
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,560
was helpful.
That's good.

638
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:34,760
That's because sometimes.
Smoke.

639
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,240
Shops, yeah, I've heard plenty
of.

640
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,760
People just try it and are like,
oh it did work.

641
00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:42,480
There's a lot of that.
There's a lot of that where and

642
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,080
I'll see people in my comments
on TikTok like, oh, I tried that

643
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:46,040
once.
It didn't work well.

644
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,160
I need to try it more than once
and it's helpful to get good

645
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,760
quality product and get somebody
that can help guide you.

646
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,120
I'm glad you had help with the
smoke shop because I don't hear

647
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,200
that very often.
Most times people say the smoke

648
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,160
shop people are not very helpful
and not very knowledgeable, but

649
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,840
it's important to do your
research anyway and just have an

650
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,160
understanding of what you're
consuming and learn about it.

651
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,600
When you first started kratom,
were you still taking your

652
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:12,920
opioids at that point or were
you not?

653
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:17,440
I was and then I realized that
that was a bad idea because it

654
00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:21,840
affects your immune receptors.
And that's the point where I

655
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,320
started.
Well, how, how long can I use

656
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,240
the kratom before I actually
need the other?

657
00:39:29,240 --> 00:39:34,400
Which I, I may be a weird pain
patient because my goal is never

658
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,520
to be have to take this.
I know some people take theirs,

659
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,160
you know, on a schedule every
single day.

660
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:47,520
My goal is to go down in the
amount that I need to take and

661
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:52,400
to try other things first.
Then that's kind of like the

662
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:56,160
toolbox, the last resort.
So I do not in the days that I

663
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,520
need my opiates, I do not take
the kratom.

664
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,200
So.
That is so interesting.

665
00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:04,760
But it's what it was, what works
for you, you know, it's figuring

666
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,720
out what works best for you, but
of course not taking them both

667
00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:10,320
together because they do affect
the same receptors.

668
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,360
I was always told from the
beginning that you don't take

669
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,960
them together because they'll
cancel each other out because

670
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,680
they're trying to both get on
the same receptors.

671
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,160
When I first started, I did
kratom during the day and then I

672
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,720
go back to my pain meds at night
while I was in that trial and

673
00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:29,040
error, figuring out the right
thing and right dose and all

674
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,080
that.
And I always made sure I waited

675
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:36,040
a good four to six hours in
between the meds and it was

676
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,840
fine.
But here's what I noticed once I

677
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,160
found the right dose and found
that the greens were for me and

678
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,160
it was really starting to work.
I remember some people said to

679
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,360
me, when you're 100% off your
opioids and you're just

680
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,200
consuming kratom, it'll work
even better.

681
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,320
And I'm like, really, OK,
whatever.

682
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,280
And then once I found the right
dose, found the right

683
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,240
everything, I completely stopped
the opioids where I was doing

684
00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:02,360
kratom day and night.
And I would say within several

685
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,360
weeks, maybe a month, it did
feel like it was where I mean, I

686
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,640
because I was taking it like
every four hours and then slowly

687
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,480
I could go longer and longer and
then to eventually get to every

688
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,520
six hours for my dose.
But you know, it's just

689
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,120
interesting that I felt like
over time it didn't work a

690
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,240
little bit better.
Have you noticed it?

691
00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:22,920
You say you're only taking your
your pain meds like maybe once a

692
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,520
week, so you're not even taking
them that often.

693
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,480
Yeah, I haven't noticed that
they don't work.

694
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:33,800
I've noticed that.
Just that I get more longer

695
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:40,240
acting relief with the kratom
for me, you know, one of my meds

696
00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:44,600
just barely cuts it and that's a
dosage I'm supposed to take and

697
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:50,240
that lasts sometimes 3 hours.
So yeah, I found that kratom

698
00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:54,800
just gives me a little more time
that and I just really, I want

699
00:41:54,800 --> 00:42:00,240
to hit the point where I don't
have to rely on opiates.

700
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:04,960
That's the goal.
I would like, you know, I like

701
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,240
that I have them available if I
need them.

702
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:12,720
But I also too is always been a
goal to you know which may be

703
00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:15,280
weird is the goal is not to need
them.

704
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,440
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with
that.

705
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,240
I think that's a great goal.
Yeah, I mean, my doctor is way

706
00:42:21,240 --> 00:42:23,880
more comfortable with that, too,
because we've discussed that and

707
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,480
he's like you, so you always
have that in your head.

708
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,320
I'm like, yeah, I mean, we
changed my dosage from summer to

709
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,960
winter because my body has a
harder time in winter.

710
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,880
But I'm like, there's always the
goal of, you know, if I don't

711
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,600
have to take it, I won't.
So I the other thing too is I've

712
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:45,280
never had to deal with opiate
withdrawal the way that I use

713
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:50,280
them because it's not consistent
enough that your body's like, I

714
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,720
mean, I, yes, I need them, feel
like you need them and get a

715
00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:58,320
little bit withdrawal, but not
like other people go through

716
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,520
like hell when they're
withdrawing off their pain meds.

717
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,080
Yeah.
Because they're reliant on it

718
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,920
every single day, which is fine,
that's normal.

719
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,960
Some people do need it, you
know, Everybody's different and

720
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,200
not everything works for every
person, so.

721
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:18,520
Yeah, My biggest concern when I
was starting kratom was am I

722
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,000
going to go through withdrawals
because I've been taking opioids

723
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,840
every day for nine years, high
doses of it.

724
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:28,920
But it was so nice that when I
was switching to kratom that I

725
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:30,560
didn't have any major
withdrawals.

726
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,240
I think the most that happened
was some hot flashes when I

727
00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:37,360
stopped the Oxycontin.
Like I could see my journal when

728
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,720
I stopped the Oxycontin.
Literally the next day was the

729
00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:42,640
first time I started getting
some hot flashes.

730
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,600
So I felt like, OK, had it been
from stopping that, that I've

731
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,440
been taking for a long time.
But I remember people telling me

732
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,880
when I was researching it in the
beginning that you most people

733
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,000
don't have any withdrawals when
they switch from narcotics

734
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,600
freedom.
And that is so nice to know that

735
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:00,880
like, because that's, I think
it's like one of the big worries

736
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,400
we have is like, how am I going
to be dealing with that?

737
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,880
Yeah, I think that the kratom, I
think that's why it works for

738
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:14,720
addiction, is that it just it's
subdues that part of your brain

739
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,840
that is telling you, you need
this.

740
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,600
I would almost be curious too if
some patients people find it

741
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,680
helpful for ADHD.
A lot of people get help with

742
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,000
that, yeah.
I was going to say I, I really

743
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:33,240
think that that's another aspect
that's not explored is that it

744
00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:37,240
can really help if you are a
person that has difficulty

745
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:42,080
focusing and because it does
help that as well, that's where

746
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,280
that little boost of energy too
comes from.

747
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,480
So.
Yeah, a lot of people have told

748
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,160
me that it's helped them with
their ADD and that it's it's for

749
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,480
it's helped with anxiety,
depression.

750
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,680
So many people I talked to will
say I started kratom for this.

751
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,520
But then it's like, oh wow, I
realized I don't have to take

752
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,720
these other meds.
I take my anxiety medicine or my

753
00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:04,000
depression medicine for
depression.

754
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,160
It's like it really is truly a
pharmacy in a plant.

755
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,560
It's just amazing how it helps
for so many different things

756
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,920
that When did you start kratom?
How long has it been now since

757
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,960
you?
I have been reliably using it

758
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:22,360
for about 6 months now.
I like tried it like a year and

759
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,760
a half ago but didn't finish,
you know, hardcore.

760
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,720
But about six months ago, I like
OK, I'm just, I'm going to do

761
00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:35,920
this and started ordering it,
started figuring out a dosage

762
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:42,360
better and reliably using it for
about 6 months has changed

763
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:48,520
things drastically as far as my
physical ability, as far as

764
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,840
handling my pain.
And I think part of it too

765
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:54,760
mentally is it's really helped
me feel like I'm in control.

766
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,400
That's a big thing for me.
Yeah, that's one of the best

767
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,040
things about it, I think, is
that I remember when you you and

768
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:04,920
I were DM ING on TikTok the
other day and that was one of

769
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,160
the things you said.
You said that you love that you

770
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,520
have a resource that you can
control.

771
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,680
And I think that's one of the
great things about this plan.

772
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,400
It definitely gives you some
control.

773
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,200
Yeah, which you don't have
normally.

774
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:21,920
Hello Geese.
Sorry, I hear of.

775
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,280
Yeah, I can like picture it.
That's so cool.

776
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,800
I love it.
But yeah, that was a big part of

777
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:33,080
one of the things that I didn't
like about opiates is that I

778
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:36,920
didn't have any control over it.
Everybody else is in control,

779
00:46:37,240 --> 00:46:40,960
and having that control is just
freeing.

780
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,680
And I'm having that in my
toolbox of, OK, if the world

781
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:50,160
goes to hell in a handbasket and
they just ban opiates forever,

782
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,720
there is something that I have
that I can use.

783
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,640
Yeah, which is great.
And I live in a friendly state

784
00:46:57,640 --> 00:46:59,840
that would probably never ban
it, so yeah.

785
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,680
Well, there there's always these
threats of bans around the

786
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,000
country.
It seems like a constant thing,

787
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:10,640
whether it's a state level or
maybe at a city level, and it's

788
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,680
always because of misinformation
and propaganda every single

789
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:15,160
time.
It's always the South too.

790
00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:17,080
I'm sorry but.
It.

791
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,960
Is it is always the same states
that don't legalize marijuana

792
00:47:21,240 --> 00:47:22,040
right?
The same?

793
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:26,240
And The funny thing I find irony
is they're also the same states

794
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:31,360
that struggled at first with
fentanyl becoming a thing.

795
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,480
Right.
There's some weird correlation

796
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:39,920
going on with that or the states
that had the actual pill mills.

797
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,400
Yes.
You know, like, is it Florida,

798
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,000
one of the.
States Florida, Florida was like

799
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,720
that.
Well, Florida is kratom is legal

800
00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:51,000
there.
I think there may be a couple of

801
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,360
counties or different couple of
places in Florida.

802
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,120
I think where they where it's
been banned like at a city

803
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,200
level.
I don't remember them off the

804
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,720
top of my head, but that's where
all the pill mills were.

805
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,040
What's Florida?
Something interesting my friend

806
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:08,960
that does harm reduction and use
kratom.

807
00:48:09,240 --> 00:48:14,080
She's an ex heroin addict and
she travels a lot now doing

808
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:18,560
speeches and she worked for the
state of Oregon helping our drug

809
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:23,600
policy when we did measure 110
which legalized small forms of

810
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:27,920
having access.
If you have, you know, under

811
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,280
this amount, they're not going
to arrest you, which has changed

812
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,240
since.
But one of the interesting

813
00:48:33,240 --> 00:48:38,760
things she ran into is she had
to get on Suboxone or one of

814
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,000
those type of things because she
was going abroad.

815
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:46,120
And in England it's illegal for
kratom because she was using

816
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:51,240
kratom for her addiction and
then had to switch because of

817
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:53,720
the legality of going to
England.

818
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:55,760
And then the worst thing
happened to her.

819
00:48:55,960 --> 00:49:00,880
She had her bags stolen and had
her doses in it.

820
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,960
Oh no, that's good.
No, it was bad.

821
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,000
Like it was bad.
She had to call the American

822
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,840
Embassy.
She, like, was doing all these

823
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,280
things to try to figure out, you
know, and she's like, I'm some

824
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:18,400
strange American who's in their
ER clinic asking if they can

825
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:22,120
give me a dose of this
medication, and they're looking

826
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:26,280
at me like I'm crazy.
She's like, I had to file a

827
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:31,640
police report for it.
She's like, yeah, all because I

828
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:33,680
couldn't take kratom because
it's illegal.

829
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,920
Yeah, there's some countries
where it's banned, but usually

830
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,840
in those countries it's again,
this information and propaganda

831
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:45,840
almost always.
And it's just sad that this plan

832
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,840
is demonized so much.
I'm glad it's helped you a lot.

833
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,200
And it's just so great hearing
your story, being that you've

834
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,920
been, you know, consuming this
regularly for six months now.

835
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:59,800
What advice would you give
someone who was just getting

836
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:01,880
started in their journey?
What would you be telling them?

837
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:08,760
Oh, I would say, you know, talk
to Someone Like You or a

838
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:12,280
reliable vendor.
Jordan has been amazing.

839
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,920
Make sure that you're you're
don't just give up.

840
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,880
Try trial and error.
You have to the trial and error

841
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:23,480
to is going to be your dosage.
If it's not working for you, go

842
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:25,360
up.
If it's not working because

843
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:27,760
you're taking the capsules,
there's a big difference between

844
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,840
the powder and capsules.
Really look up.

845
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:36,360
There is things out there to
help you, but like ask somebody

846
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:43,000
that's using it questions.
You know how the you know, that

847
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,920
way you're not alone trying to
figure out how to make this

848
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,080
useful.
I mean, I was lucky because the

849
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:53,200
smoke shop person was very
knowledgeable, but that's not

850
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:57,480
the usual.
But reach out and ask somebody

851
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:02,400
who's you know, you can find
people on TikTok, etcetera that

852
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:04,960
are using Misty.
Misty Brown.

853
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:08,560
Yeah, I mean, there's all sorts
of people that you can, you

854
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:12,560
know, ask and message hey, and
if you see my video, message me

855
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,880
and I'll help you figure it out.
But it's a lot of trial and

856
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:18,360
error.
And don't give up because it's

857
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:20,800
worth it.
It's well said.

858
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:23,200
It is worth it.
It's worth it when you find that

859
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:24,400
magic.
Yeah.

860
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:26,680
For sure, Jennifer, this has
been so much fun.

861
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,800
Thank you for coming on and
sharing your story with us.

862
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,920
It's so nice getting to know you
better and learning more about

863
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:35,480
how this plant has helped you.
I really appreciate.

864
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,360
It no problem and it was great
talking to you.

865
00:51:42,240 --> 00:51:45,040
Thank you for listening.
You can get more information at

866
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:48,920
Kratom Stories Podcast SCOM,
including show notes from this

867
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:49,480
episode.