Ep 56: Jennifer Gillis: Kratom, Chronic Pain, and the Power of Advocacy

0:00 I don't define myself by my disability anymore. Like there's a lot of stuff I'll never do and that's cool. Like that's fine with me. I've learned to live with it. But you know, just not being miserable and in chronic pain every single day is like, you know, 100 LB weight lifted off my shoulders for the last 5 1/2 years. And so to me, that's just awesome. It actually takes the pain away instead of just making you OK to live with it I guess. Welcome to Kratom Stories, a weekly podcast where we share stories of how this amazing plant has changed our lives. I'm your host, Madeleine Sklar.

0:41 Each week I'll bring you a new episode featuring interviews with experts, advocates, and everyday people who've experienced the benefits of kratom first hand. Join me as we dive deeper into the world of this botanical wonder and discover the amazing stories behind this incredible plant. The Kratom Stories Podcast is presented solely for educational purposes. Neither the podcast nor its host promote or endorse the use of kratom, a substance not yet regulated or approved by the FDA. The views and opinions expressed by guests are theirs alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the host or the podcast. The content is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified healthcare provider with any questions regarding the use of kratom.

1:30 Before we dive into today's episode, I want to let you know about Kratom Real Talk. It's a new community for positive, uplifting discussions about the power of whole leaf kratom. If you'd like to be part of the conversation and learn more about this plate or contribute your knowledge, go to kratomrealtalk.com. So I'm here with Jennifer Gillis, I had her on the podcast a while back. She's created on the Stories podcast episode #3 I wanted to bring her back on and talk more about her as a kratom consumer and advocate. And she's part of the Kratom Gals, my cool live stream series I started a year ago. Jennifer, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. Thank you for having me.

2:19 It's it's been quite a year, but I'm glad to be here. Yeah. And you know, when I first interviewed you for the podcast, even though I launched it a year ago, which would be December 2023, I actually interviewed you way before that because I was like interviewing people really far in advance, trying to just kind of build up some episodes and have them ready. I think I interviewed like that previous summer. So that'd be like, you never have a job. It was a. Long. Time ago and. That was before we started the live stream series and, you know, you weren't really doing much video stuff yet. You've got a podcast before, or was that your first one? I did one with Wade Harmon. Well, I think I did 2 with him, but I mean, still I was not comfortable at all, you know, But it's comfortable as can be now.

3:07 So it's interesting to see how this will contrast compared to the first one. Well, you know, practice makes perfect, you know that's right. And, you know, just doing more of these types of things, you are definitely a lot more comfortable on camera and just chatting and doing this. I think it's so easy when you're new to advocating and like being on camera and doing all this stuff is different. You know, we're not used to that and you don't. And you feel like, Oh my gosh, people are going to be looking at me. What do I say? What do I do? And am I going to freeze up? Like am I going to mess up? And really, at the end of the day, it's like people just want to hear what you have. To say, I mean, and also at the end of the day, I mean, what matters is the message that you're getting out.

3:47 I mean, who cares if people pick on your. And you know, honestly, the community is awesome. Everybody's really supportive. And I try to be supportive of everybody else, especially if they're new, because it is it's overwhelming. And a lot of people are just used to being on camera and used to doing things like, and I've just never been a video person. So it's a lot of getting used to. But yeah, the messages are so important that I felt like I needed to, and I'm glad I did. I'm glad you started the kratom gals and the Twitter space that everything kratom real talk. Got a lot going on. Here. Our community is, you know, but I come from building online communities. I've been doing that since the 90s.

4:28 So I have a lot of experience of like how to start it, how to lead, how to bring people together. I've built so many different online communities in these past 3 decades. And because I'm a kratom consumer myself and it's like, OK, I got to get something started for our community. I, I would have done it sooner since I've been consuming it for 5 1/2 years. But I was taking care of my mom for those first four years of my kratom journey. And I was just so bogged down taking care of my mom who's elderly with medical issues and, you know, in her last phase of life. So it was, it was a lot to deal with. I was a very excited kratom consumer and quiet advocate.

5:08 We can all quiet advocate, right? We can all contact our legislators, we can get the AKA the American Crime Association's newsletters and always be up on what's going on. We can connect with each other on social media. But really wasn't until I was out of that chapter of my life before it's like, OK, I'm ready to start the podcast. I'm ready to start a live X Used to be Twitter chat, little spaces audio chat. Want to do some Tik toking and live streaming and look where we are now. You know, here's been a whole year of doing all these advocacy things and you've been right next to me all this time. You like very active in all the different things I've done to bring our community together. I appreciate that. Yeah, I feel like the community needed you. I feel like you're like that puzzle piece that fit in. So I'm really glad now.

5:55 You know, I know it was probably really hard to deal with all that with your mom and everything, but I think it's good too that you had something to kind of keep your mind busy after and you put a lot of time and energy into it so. I do, but it's just that's just how I am. It's just how and because of kratom I can that's. Right. It gives me the pain relief and the energy to do all these things. I'm definitely a testament to that, that like you can do it, you know, because of kratom, which is awesome. And I love that about this plant. So I love that you're really big with advocacy like me and there's so many of us in the community and it is a great. I mean, you're so right. We have such a great community with people that are fellow kratom consumers and I love that you're such a part of this with us.

6:41 Even though we've had you on the podcast, you're episode number 3 of the Kratom Stories podcast. Let's still kind of backtrack a little bit and talk a little bit about your past. People can listen to the the previous episode to get the fuller. Well, how about an abbreviated version of you telling us a little bit about yourself and life before kratom? Well, the reason I started consuming kratom is I have a neurological autoimmune disease called transverse myelitis. It's really it's, it's like the cousin of Ms. It's 3 lesions on my spinal cord. And I was diagnosed in 2005. I had to think about that. It was right after my middle son was born. But, you know, I woke up one day paralyzed from the neck down and finally got diagnosed with transverse myelitis.

7:27 And with that came chronic pain. And so for years and years and years, I was on chronic pain medication. I tried everything, you know, fentanyl patches, oxycodone, hydrocodone. I could, I'm trying to think of everything. But, you know, I did acupuncture, I did the steroid shots. I mean, I tried everything to control my pain, but nothing really took it away. I mean, you know, the narcotics and everything dulled the pain and it would make me be able to like live, But I mean, I was really unhappy. I got pregnant with my third kiddo and goodness gracious, 2011. And at that time I had to get off everything, everything cold Turkey.

8:09 And so after I had my kid, I'm like, oh, OK, I'll just go back to, you know, the, the doctor and get back on all the pain meds. And that didn't happen, you know, because all the DA cutbacks and the new laws and, and whatnot. And so I finally got prescribed 5 milligram hydrocodone twice a day. So that's nothing. Like when you're. And that is, yeah, it's like nothing. That's nothing. So I was running out of pain medicine every month. I started drinking alcohol to try and take care of the pain. That only made it way worse. Like it made my life hell. It really did. And so, you know, I'd be in withdrawal every month from running out of pain meds. I mean, it was just like a really shitty life to live. And I found out about kratom through a friend of mine. His mom had been taking it for a couple years for Crohn's. And I mean, at this point, I was ready to try anything. If I could have, if I knew where to go, I would have went, you know, on the streets.

9:05 I mean, when you live like that, you just, you're so tired of just living like that. But yeah, I'm like, I'll, I'll try it. And boy, I could not believe like, because in my head I'm thinking now there's no way a plant is going to do any, you know, I've tried all this stuff. But yeah, I mean, the first two weeks I didn't even say anything to anybody like around me because I didn't want to like jinx it. I thought, oh, maybe it's just, you know, it's going to wear off. You know, there's no way. Maybe I'm just having a few good days or something. But it, it was amazing. I was, it's, it was amazing. And not only did it take care of my chronic pain, but I started noticing that I didn't have that urge to drink all the time. And so, you know, I started looking into, I really, I did some research, but I mean, I, I found a lot of negative things online when I did search it.

9:52 And so I was a little bit scared, you know, when I first started, I didn't join a Facebook group, right? I kind of just winged it. The lady that told me about it, you know, she told me to start off taking one teaspoon and but yeah, I looked into it. I'm like, oh, so people do take this for alcohol to stop drinking alcohols and like, well, two birds, one stone, pain relief. Pain relief and stopping alcohol, That's great. Yeah, I mean, you can't beat that. And so, you know, I mean, wow, what a it was just such a an awesome change. So I everywhere I went, kratom, kratom, kratom, kratom, everybody in my house knew all about kratom. I would just constantly talk about it. I mean, it was awesome.

10:33 And I still to this day, you know, 5 1/2 years later, I'm still just in awe by how much it really, I mean it just gives me, it gave me my life back. It gave me a second chance. So it's amazing how this plant does that. And I hear that from people all the time. And our stories are so similar because I did not believe there's a way a plant would help with my pain. I have really debilitating chronic pain. And it's like, there's no way a plant's going to take the place of all these narcotics. There's no way. And even if it does take the place, because you know when they will get the scripts anymore, it's like, I was probably like barely do anything. Because you just don't think of plant medicine as something that replaces a heavy narcotic, right?

11:16 Right, right. And I mean, it's just, you know, it's, I mean, comparing it, let's say to compare it to the narcotics, it's not something that you feel. It's almost like, you know, it just makes you normal. Like it makes you feel like I'm no, I'm no longer, you know what? I left a lot of the chronic pain groups and stuff like that because you know, it, I used to be that, you know, just, it's a lot of negativity. There's a lot of depression. And you know when you offer help, hey, why don't you try the kratom? Well, it's not FDA approved or it's always an excuse. Push back. There's always push back. Yeah, it's like, oh, well, my, you know, my son's cousins, brothers, cats, dog, you know, had a bad experience or.

11:57 And it's like, if you're really, truly serious about changing your life, you're willing to give it a try. And I mean, if you look into it, there's all these people that are saying the same thing as we do. But yeah, I just, I left a lot of that because it's just what am I trying to say here? I don't to find myself by my, my disability anymore. Like there's a lot of stuff I'll never do and that's cool. That's fine with me. I've I've learned to live with it. But you know, just not being miserable and in chronic pain every single day is like, you know, 100 LB weight lifted off my shoulders for the last 5 1/2 years. And so to me that's just awesome. It actually takes the pain away instead of just making you OK to live with it, I guess, compared to narcotics.

12:41 So yeah, I don't know. It's hard to explain. It's hard to explain, but yeah, it just makes you feel normal and like you're a person that doesn't have that many problems again. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm so glad it's helped you and I'm so glad that we've met through our community. And I want to know a little more about how has it, how has kratom like just impacted your day-to-day life just from consuming this plant? Oh, day-to-day life, I mean, aside from back when I was drinking every day, I mean I would be in the bed a lot. I couldn't go to my kids field trips. I was pill counting all the time to make sure I had enough medicine. If I had to go try and do something like that to do it, holidays would come around and I would have to make sure that I was going to have medicine.

13:31 If not, then I would try and find somebody I could buy it from. And if that fell through, well, you know, I was probably going to be tipsy and hungover the entire holiday season. So I don't, I mean, yes, I still get tired and I still have to take breaks and I still have to sit down and lay around sometimes. But you know what? I use that time to learn more about things, you know, because it's constantly things changing on the science and everything and advocate. But I'm not miserable. I'm not just laying down complaining all the time. I can go to the grocery store if I want to. I mean, that was not a thing that I did. My husband did all of that. I can get up and just do stuff. I can do the laundry every day. I don't have to like hoard it away for two days and then complain for the entire day that I I don't have to put things off. Like I'm not constantly waiting to live, I guess is how I look at it.

14:23 Because before crying, I was constantly waiting for my refill, waiting for the doctors. Is it counting days, counting pills? It's just, it's freedom. I can just be normal. You know, a lot of things people take for granted. And when you live with a chronic condition, it's not normal. And, you know, I used to get so mad just looking at people's Facebook posts or they're out having fun going grocery shopping and field trips. And I used to just be so mad. And like, I hate those people, you know, just saying negativity all the time. But yeah, I mean, it's just giving me functionality, functionality to pretty well not do whatever I want to do, but a lot of things that I want to do. Yeah.

15:07 How's your family feel about it? I mean, I know you've been in this for five years now, but did they notice like a huge difference when you start? Oh yeah, yeah. My family has always been really supported by me. Thankfully he put up with me while I was trying to get so much, but he immediately saw a change. I'm not, well, quite frankly, being a bitch all the time, being a constant bitch and a pain in the butt. I'm able to help out more. Like I don't have to constantly, hey, can you do this? Can you go to the grocery store? Can you do this? And I think it's really, really important to have people around you that are supportive. I know that there's a lot of people that feel like they can't open up to their spouses or their loved ones, but my entire family has seen just such a major impact that it's made on my life. I couldn't imagine someone that cares, truly cares about you being angry about that.

15:59 I really couldn't unless they're just miserable themselves. I mean, I don't know. But yeah, I mean, my family is very supportive. My husband's, he's always excited. He's very excited. I'm part of the great home gals and he's proud of me. So it's a good feeling. It's a good feeling when the people around you also notice that change and they're supportive of you. It's nice having that support for sure, but there are plenty of people that don't get the support with their family and friends. There's been plenty of people that have told me like, you know, they don't tell anybody. They don't feel comfortable talking about it with others around them, or they have family members that just don't get it and they think you're just trading in one thing for another. What would you say to someone who doesn't get the support from their family? I mean, you know, I think it's silly to hide it. And I mean, if it's to the point where it's, you know, affecting like your marriage or, you know, I'm not going to sit there and be like, if it were me, I would go get a new husband. No, no kids.

16:58 I mean, you know, educate. I mean, you know, get the resources, educate, stick to your guns. You know, say, look at me. Look at what I'm doing. Look at how much I've changed. Do you really, I mean, you know, if you sit down and ask somebody that that truly cares about you, do you want me to suffer every day or do you want me to live life and be happy? I mean, it's kind of a telling moment what they would say to that and how they feel about everything. But I mean, the best thing to do is just educate as much as you can. And I know that there are a lot of people. There are a couple people in my family, especially the older ones, and they're just kind of dead set in their ways.

17:39 And I know that if they would have saw a news story like the stuff that's out there or if they would have read a headline or Cindy Lou Who's mom at church told her about this horrible experience, I could definitely see them having a bad, bad view on it. My mom actually know this was quite a while after I had started consuming kratom, but a lady at church told her that her daughter had tried kratom once and ended up in a middle of a field naked at like 3:00 AM and didn't know how she got there. And I'm like, Mama, that was not kratom. That would not be kratom. Kratom doesn't do that. That is not kratom behavior and so I don't know. The best thing I can say is just actions do speak louder than words.

18:25 I mean, if you're living life and you're doing well in life, then who's to say that's a bad thing? Yeah, exactly. But I think it's important to educate your family members or friends or people that are buying into all the negativity that they hear about. I mean, yeah, when people Google kratom, there's so much misinformation, disinformation as well, and propaganda. And it's a real shame that people believe everything they read. And, you know, I think you're better off listening to people with their first hand experience. Listen to a variety of people with first hand experience to get, you know, a better perspective. I always tell people to share the website kratomanswers.org because that has like some of the best factual science backed information about kratom.

19:12 I think that's a great starting point for anyone that wants to send family members, loved ones, even their doctor too. I always share that link with anybody in the medical profession that I meet with when I mentioned kratom and almost all of them and pretty much all of them never heard of it. I'll tell them go to kratomanswers.org because we know that's better than them just Googling it. It is, it is. And hey, Kratom stories podcast, there you go. I mean, there's, you know, dozens and dozens of stories about, I mean, there is a lot of people that believe whatever they read and it's sad that it's, you know, it's even public officials that. They Google it and yeah, and they're getting so much misinformation or, you know, they look at the FDA site and FDA has such misleading information and they refuse to, you know, share more accurate science backed information.

20:05 And to me, it's just so crazy that they've done a single dose study. I know I talk about this all the time, but it just boggles my mind that you've got a government agency that has. Bad mouths. Kratom wants to get it banned, yet they've done a single dose study in like over a year ago that shows that kratom is not harmful, that is well tolerated in all doses. Yet they won't publish it. They haven't released that information. I mean things will change when that gets officially published and they put on their site because it totally contradicts everything they put on their site about kratom. And it would be nice to have that resource. My thing is to, you know, people, goodness gracious, how many times has the FDA said stuff that was not true though? I mean, it's seriously like there's a lot of the everyday you see recalls and stuff from the FDA. They've went back on many medications and say there's a ingredient, cold medicine, that's been in cold medicine for as long as I can remember.

21:03 And now they're saying it just doesn't do anything. So they're trying to take it off the show like. Approve it to begin with. Exactly. Well, plus when we come to learn that Purdue the makes of makers of Oxycontin and I don't want bad mouth Oxycontin because I was one of the meds that helped me tremendously when I was in pain management. It was one of the very few that helped me. But to find out that they bought off somebody at the FDA to approve the medication and faster track it and, you know, turn the cheek on, like, you know, yes, this is addicting, but let's not share that information. It's sad to find out like, you know, how much the American public is duped. And not that we're trying to be all conspiracy theorists here, but it's just sad that we grew up trusting our doctors.

21:48 We grew up trusting the government. And you can definitely see how older generations are more inclined to believe all that stuff because that's how they came up. My parents were the type, if it was in the newspaper or on the news, then it was the truth, right? But that's all they knew. And that's how the generations before them were. But now in this, in this digital age that we've we've been in for quite a while, so much of truth gets uncovered. And it's like, wow, there's a lot of bad things that go on. There is, and I mean, again, not conspiracy theorist type, but I mean, when you really start looking in, I mean, to just a lot of things with the government, I mean, it's sad and it's a little scary. You know, that you're taught to trust things like that the whole time that you're growing up.

22:32 And I mean, we should be able to trust our government somewhat, but it's really hard to when you've been, you know, so many things are just not the way that they're supposed to be. But like I tell my kids all the time, I don't care. Somebody has doctor in front of their name and they talk with fool. They know what they're talking about and they think they sound like an expert at something. Always think for yourself. Like always look into stuff for yourself. Don't just believe everything. And heck, the media, I mean, get out of here. I mean, that's not trustworthy either, you know? Yeah. I mean, the digital age I think is I think there's a lot more people that are starting to see that. You know, it's not what it's what we've been told it is. And again, not conspiracy theorists, but you know, it's, that's just the way it is, you know? Yeah, and once I became involved in kratom advocacy with you, Misty Brown, all the others in our community, that was when I first started seeing like, wow, there's a lot of things that go on in government.

23:33 Yeah. That the public doesn't know about because until, until I got really involved in advocacy, it's like like a great example are when all of a sudden out of the blue, some community in the US all of a sudden wants to ban kratom, right. And how many of these council meetings we've watched online, because they're all live streamed now, and how poorly this whole process is done on behalf of the people that live in these communities. We always come to find out that there's rarely any notice that there's going to be this public session where people can come in and say, hey, I'm a kratom consumer. Let me share my story of how this has helped me before you make a decision that affects my entire life because I live in supposed. To be the way that the legal system works, everybody has it's supposed to be able to put their. There's rules, there's rules and their rules are that, I mean, I, I don't know all the specifics.

24:29 My understanding is as an American in my community, if they want to sit here and change laws that affect the community, they're supposed to be a public notice. They're supposed to be a public session where you can come and talk in person, where there's this discussion, a public discussion about it. So on record, they know what your stance is, and then they go vote. And we watch these online all the time in all these various communities, both at the state level, the local level. And we see how ignorant so many of these legislators are. We're like, they'll be Googling the word kratom while they're in session about to make a decision that affects all the people in their community. It's like they don't even know what it is. It's scary.

25:12 I mean, it really is scary. I mean, when you think about it, people are just making, you know, the people I know, they're not all voted into office, but you know, those are the people you're supposed to trust to make the right decisions for you. And instead of having an open mind, researching, learning, they're just making laws based on their opinion. And that's, you know, that's not right. And not everybody, I don't agree with everybody in the world, you know, we all have different opinions. To make laws based on that is ridiculous. But yeah, I mean, we've even had people call it, oh, I looked it up on the Google machine. Who says? That, yeah, we've seen say that in a live session. They don't even know how to pronounce it. They don't know. I mean, it's the things that we've seen have opened up my eyes a lot to how things work in the government. And I'm telling you, anybody listen right now, you need to at least get involved in what your local government's doing, at least know what they're doing.

26:07 Maybe go they've got a lot of City Council meetings online. Just be a part of that. It could be anything affecting you. There's no public notice say that you know, they, I don't know outlaw dogs and you got a whole hot dogs like you want to know, you know, and you have the right to know. It is. It's scary. It's scary what we've seen. It really is. And with some of these kratom bands, they come out of nowhere. They almost always claim is for the children. We know that children, children do not consume kratom. And it's like we come to find that most of the time there wasn't even a problem in that community to begin with. But you get somebody that brings it to the attention of the local government is like, we got to ban this. This stuff is bad and they demonize it, making it out to be something it's not.

26:54 Like it's just the next huge destroyer of worlds. Like if they don't hurry up and ban it now, all the kids are going to be addicted to it. You know, everybody's going to be strung out all over the streets. And it's like, but you didn't even know what it was until today and you still don't even know how to say it, you know. I mean, if it was such a problem, you know, you would see people all over having issues with it, you know, I mean, and as far as kids get out of here, none of my kids want to take that ass on 12 year old. Like, would you want to take this? Would you want to drink this swamp water? Of course not. And this kids weird. He goes outside and he's like a leaves and stuff, you know, I mean, he's weird and he wouldn't even want. I mean, come on, you know, at some point we have to just wake up.

27:37 I mean, I want to protect my kids as much as I can, but I'm not protecting them from kratom because there's no reason to have to do that. And that's silly. It's silly. Yeah, it really is pleasant. You know, with kratom these days, people seem to think kratom is kratom is kratom, and it's not. And I feel like as advocates, we spend so much time trying to educate people on the fact that there's different types of kratom and they're all completely different. You know, you and I consume kratom powder. It's just the raw leaf powder, the whole leaf. It is nature you know is not leaves. The tree and then. That's all it is.

28:18 That's all it is. You know, when people demonize kratom, it's like really? I'm consuming a leaf that came off of a tree like it's a ground up. I drink it like a tea. It gives me better pain relief than heavy narcotics that are addicting. And so we don't really hear too many issues with people that consume the whole leaf powder like we do. Every once in a while we hear stories of somebody who consumed an outrageous amount, 50 grams, 100 grams a day. I consume a total, I do 5 grams every six hours, so the course of a day, about 20 grams ish. And that's kind of a moderate. That's kind of probably actually a little high. But everybody's affected differently. I know people who take such a small amount, right?

29:00 Some people do take more than I do for their pain or whatever their issue is. But when you hear these stories of somebody taking 50-60, eighty, 100 milligrams, they have a problem. And they're looking for something that they're not going to. They're chasing the dragon. They are not going to find with kratom. A lot of those are addicts that you know, you're talking about eating a hundred 100 grams or more. I've seen people say of kratom in a day like you know, that's. You'd probably throw up first. I mean, I can't even, you know, the thing about kratom, one of the great benefits with kratom that I love is that there's a ceiling effect, right? You know, with narcotics, you take too much, you stop breathing because it will suppress your your breathing and you'll die.

29:41 But Kratom doesn't do that before it gets to anything close to that. Oh, it doesn't even do that at all. But you take too much of it, you will throw up. Yep. Your body's saying no and you will not. Want to do that again because it's very miserable. I don't see how anybody could consume such a large quantum. Yeah. I mean, you would have to train like you would have to train your body every day for a long time to be able to even make it up to 100 grand. And if you're doing that, then you have a lot going on. And it's not the plant's fault. It's a thing, not a kratom thing. Look at yourself at that point. Yeah, I mean, you have to take personal accountability, you know, instead of going around preaching about how bad kratom is. Yeah, coming after us, responsible kratom consumers, they come after us because they abuse this plant. But then there's also extracts, and we hear a lot about extracts, which is, you know, taking not the whole leaf, but taking a few of the alkaloids and synthesizing it a bit to make it a bit stronger.

30:43 And for some people, it works really well for their pain, their depression, whatever reason they're taking or, you know, to get off of opioids, which is great if it helps. But what we see as advocates, and we're just so entrenched in this community, we see so much. We hear so much that people aren't educating themselves. And people with addict behavior find these shots of extracts and typically 1 bottle almost always is multiple servings, usually 3 servings, 5 servings or more in a little bitty bottle that looks like a little shot bottle of like those energy drinks. And they start abusing it because they don't know, they're not educated on it.

31:24 And then that becomes a problem for some people. But they again, kratom is kratom is kratom. It's like, no, it's not because you don't get that with what we get with the powder. I hate the shots like I just I hate them. I do believe that there is a place for, you know, extracts MIT extracts. I just you know, I know that there is a you know, but you need to be a kratom consumer for a long time. You need to know what you're doing. You need to know how to dose and you need to know the reason. You know, you need to know, you know, you don't want to just be all Willy nilly go on the gas station and down in these five hour energy shots. I like, I really, I just hate those shots. Like it's just, yeah, I mean, you hear about so many people going and buying cases of them every day. And I mean, again, though, again, a lot of those people are looking for whatever they're trying to get, you know, by down in those shots every day.

32:17 And again, you know, it's not really the shots fault, it's the people going to buy it. And they also should take personal account. But I mean, yeah, I do think the shots give a lot of God, just Abby. On the advocating side, it is tough because it's almost always the horror stories with the extracts because they found them in a in a gas station and just went crazy with it. Yeah, almost always. Do you think that they should stop selling those? Like do you think a solution would be that they just aren't available in gas stations anymore? Honestly, yeah. I mean, I'm not for banning anything per SE, but yeah, I would like to see them out of gas stations, maybe at a health food store and online or, you know, just somewhere where, you know, you have somebody that's knowledgeable about.

33:03 And again, you know, the only time I know Misty will say this too, there is a time and a place when you're first starting out for extracts, labor, coming off something really hard or, you know, say you had surgery and your stomach at. But, I mean, there is a time and a place for it when you're first beginning. But, you know, don't just go to the gas station and buy these things. It's hard to find education about it. You know, it would be nice to have it at a health food store or someplace like that where you actually have somebody that knows what they're talking about and can kind of walk you through on how not to end up buying cases of that crap every day. Yeah. I would like to see it out of gas stations. I would. Yeah, I'm with you. Like I'm not for prohibition at all. I, you know, if I think there's a place for these, but they shouldn't be so easy to access like that on a shelf at a, at a convenience store or gas station. I think it should be like how you have cigarettes behind the counter at a convenience store, have it behind the counter. So that number one, you're ensuring the person is carded to make sure they're, you know, 18 and up or 21 and up depending on what state they're in and making sure there's information. But I think they shouldn't be in gas stations at all. I think a smoke shop behind the counter where they get accurate information from the people that work there, I think is important.

34:19 I always tell people online vendors are the best because you know you're getting lab tested good. You want to get by good lab tested quality products. And, and if it's a great vendor, you can connect with them online and talk to them and they'll help you and. They might even have, you know, things on their website they can point you to so you can look it up at your convenience. You know, you may not. But yeah, I think a lot of the online vendor, the vendors that are in it for the right reasons, Yeah. I mean, the reason why they're in the business is to help people, you know, And so a lot of times, yeah, the gas station is just like you got Billy Bob working at the cash register. He does not care. You know, he thinks it's hilarious people are coming to buy cases of it. You know, it's like, I don't know, but yeah, I think that, you know, if there just needs to be a lot more education around the extracts and you're not going to get that at 7:11. Exactly and then there's a 7 O, you know, we have to talk about that because that pops up in our conversations all the time now. So for our listeners, if you're not familiar, so not only these are kratom powder and kratom extracts, but now we're hearing a lot about these seven OH products. They're usually tablets, but we're also seeing them made into other products.

35:32 And what a mess that's becoming for us kratom advocates and consumers because that's now taking the seven hydroxymetragynin, which is 1 extract in the plant and synthesizing it to the point that it's basically an opioid. And to have the top kratom researchers in the country sounding the alarm, you know, a great article came out yesterday from researchers and they're very concerned about this. And they talk about it all the time publicly about, you know, this is becoming a problem. What are your thoughts? Because you know, you, me and Misty Brown and and Venus with the kratom gals were always talking about saying no to seven O because we want people to be educated and understand what this is. And this is really becoming a problem. So what's your thoughts on the seven O? You know, it's scary going back to like the whole gas station thing.

36:23 You know, you got these at smoke shops and gas stations and they're being marketed as kratom products. You know, it even says it on the packaging. That is a huge concern. This is not cradle. You can call it, I was calling it synthetic because it's made in a laboratory. But let's say it's semi synthetic. The point is it's made with chemicals. It is not. It is a very highly concentrated alkaloid that you're consuming. It's not cradle, but another big concern is just, you know, hearing Doctor McCurdy and and Doctor Smith and, you know, Doctor McCurdy said that every time this is getting made, there's components in there that are, we don't even know there's trace chemicals in there that we have no idea what they are.

37:07 That's concerning. It's concerning that there is no way to test for only the seven hydroxy when someone passes like everything is just rolled as a kratom death if they have any of that in their system. And so that's a huge thing because we already as advocates here so many times and so many people claim that it's, you know, kratom only death. And I feel bad for all those families. But when the coroners aren't even testing for anything else and they're just testing for that one thing, of course, it's that's just a huge concern. So it's already hard enough to not Get the facts on that. Those poor family members have to pretty much never know the truth because that's there's no testing. But it's just it's concerning to just to read all the stories about what it's doing to people, Like it's turning people into, you know, addicts, you know, a lot of these people that were heroin addicts or whatever, fentanyl, whatever, they're just changing it to that.

38:10 I mean, they're spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars a day on these pills. Yeah. And another thing is going to look at the lab test. You know, how many have we seen that claims it has seven oh H in it and it has nothing NO7OH at all. And it's got methane hexane. It's got all kinds of stuff in it, but it sure don't have no 7H in it. So you're just, I mean, you're just somebody's Guinea pig, as Missy always says, that's what it is. And it's, and that's concerning because who knows? I mean, these people, there's no regulation on it. So these people are coming in just to make money.

38:51 They can throw whatever they want to in it and people are just buying it up. And that's scary. Yeah. And when we say say no to 7 seven O, I'm not saying, you know, let's go and ban it. And I'm saying let's educate people. If you're wanting to be a kratom consumer, say no to seven O, especially if you're just say no to seven O. And if you want to say yes to seven O and you're educated on what it is, bro, go for it. I ain't telling you what to put in your body. I will never do that. But marketing at as kratom is just it's ridiculous and it's it's irresponsible, it's reckless and it's concerning. And I could go on and talk about the solid oh.

39:32 You're fired up. I I knew you could. It is very concerning and we've talked about it so much on the kratom gals, because when we watch videos, we come across a variety of them where people are talking about 7 O and they'll show the packaging of these products and you can see they're trying to market this like a drug. They try to like come up with names. So it sounds like you know Percocets perks and other you know, very drug sounding names Roxies and you'll know anybody that's not that doesn't know much about this. You'll know when you see the packaging will always have 70 H really highlighted and it will almost always have the word kratom somewhere on the packaging and.

40:12 Strongest kratom alkaloid? Yeah, you know. If they're crazy strong with the shots, with the extracts, the most of the seven hydroxymetergainine they can have is 2%. But with these, they're a crazy high percent. And when you have Doctor McCurdy, one of the leading kratom researchers, saying we don't know what's in this, they can't identify it. So like you're putting chemicals in your body that researchers can't even identify, right? And you're OK. It's like. You're telling me that that you're OK with people just starting out and, you know, and I know a lot of people. Oh, well, you know, it's the only thing that work for some people's pain. Is it though, is it really like have they tried anything else?

40:54 That's my big thing because I know a lot of we've heard stories of people going into smoke shops and these smoke shop owners are hey, take this, take these 70 H bro, like that's not cool, you know? So how in the world do we know that's the only thing that works for those specific people's pain? I'm just saying, like I, I just, and again, I'm not talking for a band, but there needs to be a whole lot more education and more just so much of the pushing to make this money from these people, from the vendors. I mean, I can't even count how many 7 OH, vendors are out there now. You know, who knows how they're even making it, you know, or they make it in their bathtub or do they have a, you know, a decent place to make it?

41:39 Who knows? It's just, it's scary. It's scary. And so it's, I don't know, I just get, I get tired of seeing all the hate that we get about it just because we're trying to advocate and educate. And educate, Yeah, we're just trying to. Educate. Know the difference? Yeah. And the way I kind of equate it, when you have the powder that we consume versus extracts versus the seven, oh, I say that's comparing light beer to vodka to Everclear. That'd be like the easiest way to understand the. Different moonshine there. You go. That's probably a better. They're making it in the bath or they're making it, you know, it's man made. We don't know how exactly they're doing it, and the FDA is doing nothing about it. No, no. And I mean.

42:21 They don't care. And people, you can't argue with the scientists that happens. Like Doctor Mccurry's been doing this for a couple decades. You know what I mean, Doctor Smith? It's like these are people that all they do is work with Cradle and they are concerned. So, you know, just because you might read an article that, you know, somebody or a post somebody wrote on Reddit or whatever, that does not make them an expert. I don't care if they're taking 200 milligrams of seven OHA day, that also certainly doesn't make them an expert. You know, So I could go on and on about the seven, OH, every all day. But yeah, it's very concerning. Yeah. Well, I'm glad that the researchers are sounding the alarm and trying to make sure the public understands that this is something that should not be marketed. It's out there.

43:09 You know, I don't think there's a whole lot that can be done about that. But they're saying this is not kratom, period. This is not kratom, and they're marketing it as kratom. Yeah. And I think there's just a lot of people that are, yeah, a lot of people selling it right now. They're trying to get as much money as they can. It's. The money grab, money grab while they get it, because at some point something's going to happen. Yeah, and I know I've also heard on my own e-mail, you're just, you know, all these people saying it's going to get kratom band. It's like, dude, I'm not even saying that. Like I'm not even saying that. I'm just, I don't know if I've ever said that. I mean, I think it's going to give kratom a a worse name that it already has. I think there's going to be a lot of bad things that happened. But I'm just saying like, that's not the reason why we say say no to 70.

43:58 That's not why we're against it. That we have very good reason. Yeah. And when you really dig into these deaths you hear about related to kratom, like 90% of the time is polydrug use. So it is not the kratom that killed them. They had kratom and fentanyl and heroin and this and that and all. These things, all these things in their. System is not. It is so rare, super rare for it to be kratom only. But even those supposed kratom only have been questionable. Like the one where the guy had a gunshot wound to the chest. Like a shotgun wound to the chest. But they called. It a positive for kratom though, so it's automatically a kratom.

44:41 Or there was kratom in his apartment and he's dead so it had to have been the kratom that killed him. Or the family member says, oh, he's been using kratom for a couple of weeks. You know, that's it as far as they go with any investigation, which is crazy. Like if it were my kid and again, like I do have a place for these grieving families, like I understand, but if it were my kid, I would be fighting like hell for the truth. I would want to know. I want them to do everything in their power like that. Mom and I Ohio you know she knows kratom didn't kill her son, but because they found it on scene they call her the next day.

45:23 No test run and oh it's a kratom death if. She if she had to take what the coroner to court over there because she knew the truth, but they just want to like wipe their hands of it. We're going to do as little as possible. So let's just call it a kratom death because we saw kratom like you said, on scene. Ridiculous. It really is. And you don't know about these things until you start diving in and, and hearing like, wow, this stuff goes on all the time and is suppressed and nobody knows about it. So that's why we're loud, proud advocates. We want the truth out there. We want people to know that these things happen. If something happens to me, it will not be because of. Kratom.

46:07 It will not be because of my kratom consumption 100% period. But you get somebody who just wants to do this quickly and they'll be like, well, I should point, she has a lot of kratom in her cupboard. It was the kratom. Well, and you know, a lot of times, I mean, there's so many factors that can go into this. You know, I mean, a lot of these people, I mean, hell, I'll be, I'll tell you right now, I haven't lived a, you know, healthy lifestyle. But is say you know, you've been a heroin user for 10 years of your life and you've drank alcohol for 20 years and you're just coming off of heavy opiates or something and you pass away 3 weeks in your Kratom journey. Like were you even healthy in the 1st place? You know, you probably had issues in the 1st place. You probably had issues before kratom came into the picture. And again, you know, I just wish that there was more looking into it.

46:58 I would, I would demand if I could an autopsy. And just to know, I mean, it could even be if, if one of my children, God forbid that happened to, I would demand an autopsy. It could be some hereditary you might save somebody else. So, I mean, and that actually happened with my uncle. My uncle passed away just suddenly. He was 50 years old and my grandmother had an autopsy and he had a heart disease thing and ended up, you know, saving my dad and his other brother's life because it's so if he wouldn't have died, who knows what would happen. I mean, you know, there's just so many things that people don't take into consideration and, and again, how many times during COVID did we hear somebody died of COVID and they had like a car wreck or something, but they tested positive for it's the same thing.

47:47 Right. They did call a lot of things COVID deaths, but it was like something else happened too. It's like. Oh, I had a heart attack. But you were positive for COVID. So it's like, you know, think about that. I mean, again, it all goes back to even though we're supposed to trust how things work in the government, that's not always the ideal way things should work. Yeah, I agree. I'm loving this conversation. This is so good. I love that you're such a big advocate like I am in the community. For those listening, I'm sure we have listeners are like, you know, I want to advocate more. I'm a consumer. This plant's amazing. It's helping me. What would you tell somebody? Like how can they get started in advocacy? Well, you know, always, if you're not already following the American Krannom Association, definitely sign up for their newsletter. They send out stuff.

48:32 Unfortunately, they don't have a Facebook page anymore, but you can find them on YouTube, Twitter, Instagram. I would also say follow the Kratom gals because we do a lot of every Saturday and we always go over whatever is going on, the news, whatever new science is going on, you know, just stay up to date. If you want to do social media, heck yeah, go ahead and start making videos. Hit us up, we'll help you out. You know what I mean? Just tell your story. Your story means so much. Like there is so much value in someone's voice and then telling their story because there's somebody out there that needs to hear your story because it's somebody out there it's going to be similar to and someone out there you can help. And you know, like me, I think about how miserable I was six years ago. And there could be that person out there just that miserable. And just by telling your story, you could change their life. And I mean, how cool is that?

49:26 I mean, I know you've missed it, you know, messages all the time thinking you just for y'all being on social media and that's so just sharing truth and getting into it. Also, hey, hit up Madeline on the Kratom stories podcast. There you go and come tell your story again. That's a huge deal. That's what I was going to say. It's like, you know, I'm always looking for stories to share. So for any of our listeners, if you're a kratom consumer, whether you're brand new or somebody that's been consuming it like us for many, many years, you know, we want to hear your story. And I mean, I there's some people I've been helping that I met through TikTok recently that are brand new. It's like, will you come on my podcast? Because there's somebody that could hear somebody's brand new journey into kratom just being less than a weekend, and that could impact somebody's life.

50:19 And it's amazing. Like all of our stories are important. That's why I started the podcast. And yeah, so if anybody listening you've been consuming kratom, reach out to me because I would love and tell everybody, Jennifer, how easy I make this. I know a lot of people get nervous. They've never done a podcast before. Tell them how easy this is. Oh. It's super easy. I mean, it is super easy. You know what? Madeline's laid back. It's like hanging out with a friend. You know you, you can even have your camera turned off. You can use a fake name so no one else knows your you know who it is. If you're scared or embarrassed. I mean, it's super easy. And I promise you after you tell your story, you just feel so much better because you know it's out there and you know you did something.

51:00 You know you did something. I just advocacy, you know, is, yeah, part of advocating is just like you said, get your story out there. And this is one of many ways to do it. So I'm so glad you came back on to do this with me. My last question for you is, knowing everything you know now about kratom and you know so much, you've been at this a long time, what advice would you give to someone to help them start in their kratom journey? My advice would definitely be don't give up. I mean, in the beginning a lot, I've heard a lot of people say, well, you know, I tried kratom, but it didn't work, you know, and a lot of times you have to experiment. You have to make sure that you're taking the right dose or you might need to take a different strain. You might need to try a different vendor.

51:41 Keep a journal, write down what is working and what's not working for you. I mean, just I would say if you're one of those people that are just starting out and you think it doesn't work, give it three weeks and really put forth the effort because, boy, it really does pay off. But yeah, just don't give up. Don't give up and keep on going. Keep on trucking, you know, because it's seriously this side of the wall is all a hell of a lot better. It sure is great advice. Thank you Jennifer so much for coming on and and chatting with me. This is a great conversation. Well, thank you for having me.

52:21 Thank you for listening. You can get more information at kratomstoriespodcast.com, including show notes from this episode.