Ep 59: From Addiction to Healing: A Kratom Journey with Misty & Kassie - Part 2

0:00 Kratom being a harm reduction tool, it allows you to crawl out of that cocoon a lot faster to start butterflying your recovery because you'd like. I don't care what people say about me. I don't care. And because I don't care, it allows me to continue to work on me. Welcome to Kratom Stories, a weekly podcast where we share stories of how this amazing plant has changed our lives. I'm your host, Madeleine Sklar. Each week I'll bring you a new episode featuring interviews with experts, advocates, and everyday people who've experienced the benefits of kratom first hand.

0:43 Join me as we dive deeper into the world of this botanical wonder and discover the amazing stories behind this incredible plant. The Kratom Stories Podcast is presented solely for educational purposes. Neither the podcast nor its host promote or endorse the use of kratom, a substance not yet regulated or approved by the FDA. The views and opinions expressed by guests are theirs alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the host or the podcast. The content is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified healthcare provider with any questions regarding the use of kratom. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to let you know about Kratom Real Talk. It's a new community for positive, uplifting discussions about the power of whole leaf kratom. If you'd like to be part of the conversation and learn more about this plate or contribute your knowledge, go to kratomrealtalk.com.

1:48 All right, we're back for Part 2 of the Kratom Stories podcast with Misty and Cassie. Our previous episode, episode 58, we had an amazing conversation talking about kratom with addiction and recovery. If you have not listened to that, please go back and listen to that episode first. We're going to continue the discussion because there's just so much to talk about with this topic. So ladies, thank you for continuing this with me. So we can keep this discussion going. I want to ask you both, Misty, we'll start with you. How has your life changed since you started using kratom as part of your recovery? I'm breathing. I did not become an overdose statistic. So I went from being a drugged up single mom for 11 years straight.

2:38 You know my kids constantly worrying if they were going to come home and find me dead. You know, to thriving and surviving and becoming a functional member of society again with air in my lungs. Yeah, that's just amazing that you know how far you've come in your journey with that. Cassie, what about you? How has your life changed since you started using kratom as part of your recovery? Oh, it's changed a lot. It's saved my life. As I've said it. I was headed back towards active addiction after being sober almost eight years. And, you know, I was looking for something more and I came across it and it saved me from going back to that.

3:23 I can name a million things that kratom's done and changed in my life right now. So I'm trying to figure out how to summarize it, but just I look at life differently, you know, I see things differently. Everything is just positive and I have so much like hope and dreams now that I'm actually trying to chase and I just feel like nothing has stopped me. I love that. I love your enthusiasm. I feel like what it allows us to do is it opens our eyes up to life's opportunities. Oh yeah. We're we're no longer trying to numb all that out anymore. Like we're actually seeing it and grabbing a hold of it and running with it instead of laying down, you know?

4:10 Right. Like even, you know, just getting on social media and making videos and stuff like that. Like, I never would have even thought that I would even be trying to do it, you know? And just like with freedom, like I have more confidence. I feel better about myself. Like it's just, yeah, like I, like I said, I just see things so, so much more different. And yeah, I just, I feel like I could do anything. I always like to say that I felt like I've been reborn. Yes, absolutely. Like we buried the old active addiction selves, you know, it's like we murdered them and kratom gave us the CPR, you know, to live a second life.

4:53 Oh, I love how you said that. That was very good. Very good. I love that. Yeah, the best things like that. Oh yeah, definitely. Missy, what's the one thing you wish more people understood about kratom and recovery? That is not taboo, that it is an alternative pathway to recovery so that you can become recovered. That's what I wish. It needs to stop. People need to stop. It's the, you know, and I understand the stigma behind it, but the only way to outshine the negativity is to shine, you know, come out the closet. I'm out of the kratom closet. Yeah, make it be known, you know, that not only are you elevating in your personal life, you know, your family's seeing what you're doing, you know, scream it from the rooftops.

5:45 Right. It's the only way to end the stigma. Absolutely, Cassie, what's the one thing you wish more people understood about kratom and recovery? I mean same thing. It is a great tool for people to have who are trying, who are in that life and we're trying to get well or, you know, get clean. And even the emotional and mental part of it. I feel like it helped so much with that. You know, we talked about how I went through a program and we did, you know, all of the program things like talking about things and taking certain classes and working on ourselves. But I feel like the part that kratom plays on, the mental and emotional part puts a lot of that work in, if that makes any sense. It's that is definitely hard to describe. Yeah.

6:38 It's. Well, it allows you to focus on putting that work in because you don't have a depressed mind, right? You know, you're not constantly in that dull Gray effect area where you don't feel like anything is going to move forward. You know you're beating yourself up for being an active addict. You know all that stuff. So kratom will get in there and hey be happy. Yeah, you're looking at you're looking at everything more positive. You have hope for life. You're not, you know, wishing you were dead. Like I'm just being honest. But that happens a lot in active addiction, you know, or even care if you did or not or you know, and it just puts a whole positive mindset on anything and just gives hope, gives you know the motivation to work on things.

7:24 And it's just it's just amazing. Like I still can't believe that a plant can do all that this one does. But as. We say it's a pharmacy and a plant. Yeah, one with nature. Right. And when you're in that state, you know, you just are, you're depressed, you're negative about everything. You are, you're worried about being judged. You are worried about what other people think because you're just so, you know, overwhelmed with shame. And, you know, and just being on the flip side of that and just not caring what anybody thinks and doing what I got to do for me and, you know, fighting for this and wishing people wouldn't weren't criminalizing it.

8:06 Like it just, it can do so much for so many people. I feel like, you know, as you said, kratom being a harm reduction tool, it allows you to crawl out of that cocoon a lot faster to start butterflying your recovery, you know, because you'd like, I don't care what people say about me. I don't care, you know, and because I don't care, it allows me to continue to work on me. When you're in active addiction, you kind of make yourself care what other people think of you because you have to keep that same group of so-called friends around. You know all that stuff where you got to, you got to put up a a fake person.

8:51 Right. And I agree with what you said as far as having that, getting out of that cocoon faster, having all of that time that most people spend to get better. Like I did a two year program and in that two years, it's, it's so unfortunate, but it does allow for, you know, you're not completely healed. I mean, I'm not ever going to say completely healed for anyone, but if you're not to that point where you're ready to have a clean and sober life, then you're just, you're still working on things and things come up in the middle of that. I have seen so many people leave that program just in the two years that I was there.

9:35 And also, I can probably name at least 20 people that I knew that went through that program that are not here today. Oh, wow. Yeah. It's terrible. And. So what you're basically describing is you're stunting your own recovery growth. Yeah. I've never been to meetings or recovery centers or anything like that. So is it socially acceptable for people to be put on antidepressants as they are detoxing or what have you? Not while they were in the program, like when I was in there. Oh, you want to hear some story like, yeah, we weren't allowed.

10:17 We weren't allowed to have anything unless, you know, of course, you know, if somebody had insulin or something like that. But yeah, like you weren't allowed to have to be on birth control. You weren't allowed to be on any kind of mental health medications whatsoever. So if you were on it when you came to the program, like they told you up front that you couldn't be on those medications and that you weren't going to be on them. So people had to get off their medic or whatever. Or just. So I have a story about the birth control, though, that I really want to share because the whole reason I'm getting this hysterectomy is because my uterus is sitting on top of the, my bladder and causing me a lot of issues.

10:58 Right when I was in the program, I started going to the doctor because, you know, while I'm in active addiction and I'm high all the time, I don't realize this is going on, you know, So once I get in the program and I'm clean, I'm like, Oh my God, you know, I'm all this, these issues are happening. And so I started going to the doctor. Well, one of the staff members went with me to my doctor's visits and sat in the room with me unless they said they had to do something private then they would leave. But other than that they still came with me and started talking to my doctor about the issues and blah blah blah. Long story short, she we tried everything. So she did try a former birth control that basically whatever ingredients was in it was supposed to help something with bladder issues. I can't get all into it.

11:48 I it's, it's a lot. So, so this procedure was done where they gave me this birth control and I get back to the program and later that day and then the main person that runs it asked me what happened and told her. And she's like, just live it. You're not allowed to be on birth control. And you know, we have all these restrictions or like a punishment thing like anytime you break rules. Well this gave me gave me like 7 days I think. And also she scheduled an appointment for me to go to the health department the following week and have it taken out. What?

12:30 What? Yeah, but but it sounded like you needed it Medically, yes. That's what I said. I was like, this is not for the purpose of me not getting pregnant. It's for to help my bladder issues that you already know about that I'm going to the doctor for. I don't care. You're not allowed to have birth control. Where here? Was it Catholic? Ran. No, no, this government. Was just that. What stage? Dude what you just described to me was like cult behavior. Yeah, Yeah. Well, that is just one of many, many, many stories I have. I had a lot of issues with the people that ran this program. I basically stuck with it because I was more concerned about getting clean and I felt like it's what I what I needed and whatever.

13:18 And but like, it was always talk of lawsuits and stuff like that. Like the way that they ran, it was just so, Oh my goodness, I'm sorry, you and it There's also another place in the same area that it's kind of ran the same way. And it just makes me curious, like, how many places are ran that way because I always like in the back of my mind for this woman, just like recovery centers deserve so much better than what you do here. Because it was it was loud. There is good and bad to any community. And, you know, sometimes over there in TikTok, you could tell, like, I didn't know anything about body brokering until I got on TikTok or patient brokering, you know, and sometimes you could tell with certain creators that they are in that field.

14:09 You know, yeah, they might have beat their addictions, but now they're out hunting for people that are in active addiction, you know, and recovery is not supposed to be a revolving door. Yeah, right, right. Exactly. Wow, what a story. Cassie, Thank. You I'm sharing. That with us. I got off of topic there for a second, but I just, we were talking about not being able to take things in the program. Yeah, there was. The program I was in was super strict to you. I mean, of course there's different levels and stuff. So you were in recovery for a number of years, but now you're in recovery with kratom? Oh yeah, and it's OK. So, yeah, so I was January 27th of this year is 8 years for me and I'm going to keep that date because. Because I interviewed her from the podcast, she had said like next year.

15:04 So now she's saying. This always keep your dates always. Keep. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I struggled with saying I was because I, I relapsed in September last year and I just binge doing stuff for two weekends in a row and I haven't done anything like that since. And I was searching for more because I had a rough year. I was, I got depressed. I just went through a lot of stuff and I was looking for, you know, I was drinking a lot. I started smoking weed. I was just doing things in excess and I started looking for more. And I knew like I've, I knew I started looking for things that were just going to lead me in the wrong direction.

15:48 So thank God I came across kratom. So in your mind you probably rationalize that I will start with the light stuff first. Oh, yeah, I was in there trying to think what I could do that would be OK, You know, just that same thinking. I'm like, oh, shit, I'm not going back there, not doing it. And thank God, thank God. I ran across a video of kratom and it was positive and it got me researching it and I looked past what I had heard about it. I mean, of course that was in my mind. That's why I started researching it. But after all the research I did and hearing other people's stories and everything and meeting people in the community and hearing real life stories, you know, like I finally decided to give a try and I'm so glad I did.

16:37 I wouldn't be where I'm at right now. I'm. So glad to write it too. Yeah, it's you have such a compelling story. Now when I discovered kratom back in 2019, I'm doing all this research. I came across a Facebook group that I was trying to find like who's talking about kratom where I can actually talk to people in the community and do your first hand experience. You know, it's one thing watching the documentary Leap of Faith that started my journey. Thank God for that documentary, but I still wanted more information. So I find a Facebook group talking about kratom. It was geared specifically for people in recovery. And, you know, I haven't been in that world. So I was thinking, well, I couldn't really find very many others.

17:19 And this one was super active at the time. And I thought, well, let me just go through the post and see what I can learn from this group. I don't have to actively participate in post. So it was a little weird for me at first because you had people in there talking about, Hey, I'm trying to start heroin, trying to stop heroin. And I'm like, oh, wow, I, you know, haven't known anybody doing that. So I'm like, and I was like, but they're talking about kratom. So I know I can get some good takeaways. So I, I just remember I was reading like every post. It was so active is Mike Gill's Facebook group. So back in 2019, super active. I'm reading stop taking screenshots because I'm ready to start. Like I'm ready.

17:59 I was tapering down my pain meds. I'm ready to make that transition, but I still felt like, is this a community that I can resonate with? Because not all the people there, but the majority were there for kratom and recovery. There were a few chronic pain people, but I finally, just like I was learning a lot. I learned a ton from that group. And then I, I got brave and started doing some posts and I was telling people about my, you know, coming from chronic pain, how nervous I was that I'm learning a lot. And I would ask some questions and everybody there was so welcoming to me, like with open arms, like helping me and, and sharing information and like that all those posts in there were just invaluable to help me feel comfortable enough to start.

18:43 Because, you know, if you're not hearing people's stories, you know, it could be scary in the beginning because you don't know what to expect. But to hear people, so many people talking about how great of an experience it was. So many people were saying that going from opioids to kratom, very few had withdrawal issues. Some people said none. Some people said mild. Very few people said they had anything more than mild. Because here I was coming from 9 years of daily opioids for my chronic pain to switching to kratom. And that was my biggest concern at the time because I was busy taking care of my mom. I'm like, Oh my God, you know, is this going to work? And am I going to be suffering not just with pain, but with with withdrawals as well? But I will never forget that group. It was so important to me at the time and it's still around and I think it's just great that people get together in groups, whether it's Facebook or other places to share, you know, their personal experience and help other people. So what I'm curious with both of y'all is were there resources like that that helped you when it came to using kratom for recovery?

19:48 Did y'all come across some Facebook groups or just communities where people were talking about kratom for recovery? When I found Kratom in June of 2019, I'd only been, I was on Facebook since 2018. So I was a newbie newbie. I didn't even know communities existed or anything like that, like groups. But my daughters, one of my kids had said, mom, there might be a Facebook group about kratom. So that's when I went searching and I saw all these different support groups and I joined a whole bunch of them. And then I was like you, I did not want to speak out. I didn't want to comment. I stayed in the background and researched and read everything.

20:29 And then I started posting up, you know? And then I started my own advocacy group with a couple other admins. Shout out to Mike Dirks and Laura. They haven't been active for a while because they got life stuff going on. But I started my own advocacy group in August of 2019 because I was like, why? Where, what, how come in my 11 years of active addiction, how come I didn't know kratom was even an option, you know, not only for pain relief, but to help people find recovery, You know, So I wanted to try to like, be that, you know, using the way I felt to bring it from the rooftop and try to get other people involved as well.

21:11 That's the how my journey happened. Yeah. What about you, Cassie? Did you come across some helpful resources, support group things online that helped you with? I did. Recovery for with your kratom. Yeah, I did. So as far as the social media goes, I think I know like the first time I tried to, to look, you know, I tried to sell kratom like, you know, normal and I couldn't find anything. And I was like, darn, how am I supposed to find any groups or anything? Because I do that all the time. You know, whenever I'm wanting to learn about something, I always join a group about it anyway. Couldn't find anything. Sorry, I'm so sorry you're going in during that aftermath of Facebook removing kratom from the search bar. It only recently happened.

22:02 It did. It was not like 3. Years. They make it hard, but it's not really. I mean, Facebook is bad with this, but others, you know, on TikTok, you can't spell kratom the normal way. That's why we have to spell it differently. They make it so you can't search. If you go Google kratom most times these days, you do that and it wants to direct you to a recovery center or tell you, do you need help with drugs? You know, right? It's mind boggling to me how much the government has stepped in to try to keep us from learning about this plant. It's just wrong, right? And just to think how many other people out there right now that are suffering thinking they can go to Facebook and type in kratom and and try to find recovery or work groups like we did and. If they if they type it in and they don't find anything and they just give up.

22:52 Luckily I had found somebody spelled Kratom with the 8IN place of the letter A, so that's how I ended up being able to search for it. I figured that out. So I found some things through that. Of course, you know, I do feel like I feel like any of us could have more to reach out to if we could spell it correctly. Because now, you know, there's no telling, you know what I mean? Like how many different ones there is that we could have access to that we can't because of the spelling? Yeah, we're just not findable. We're not findable. We're not searching. Well, they do everything in their power to make it so that our voices are suppressed, and it's just sad.

23:35 Now. Also, when I interviewed you for the podcast with your episode, you had mentioned that you came across the Crane Stories podcast on Spotify. So. I was getting there. Wait, where did that play into this? So that's another thing that I really like to do when I get interested in something or want to learn about it is I love listening to podcasts and in my car when I drive and I'm always driving. So I can pretty much binge listen to podcast all the time. And of course, if I love it started listening to yours and that's how I found all of you. I started listening to yours and binge listen to it and I fell in love with it. I loved hearing everyone's stories. I learned so much from it.

24:22 It was great. And then I found you on one of the social media platforms and it's just growing from there and I've gotten to know a bunch of you and it's amazing community. But yes. I guarantee you, Cassie, that the story you're just now saying it will happen to you. Somebody will accidentally see one of your Tik Toks or accidentally see one of your Youtubes. It will happen, yeah. Better life will change people. Something you posted. Yeah, yeah. Like I've said before, you know, I've never, I've always wanted to do something to help others in recovery since I've gone through this and a lot of people will go get I think it's called AC stack or something like that and be like a addiction counselor or whatever like that. But I just never been yeah, I never been interested in that. But ever since I found it, found kratom and found you all and seen y'all advocate and do what you do on social media, that was like I knew it right then.

25:29 Like this is my passion. This is how I want to help and this is how I want to do it. I'm hoping one day I'll be good at it. But, you know, it is what it is. I want to get the message out. I want to get the education out. I have wanted to do so much more than what I've done so far. You know, my time just doesn't allow. But I I've got so many plans and yeah. You sound like me, you sound like me because when I discover kratom and it's changed my life, I'm like, Oh my gosh, what can I do? I want to do a podcast. I want to do a life this and that. But at the time I was taking care of my mom and I, I knew I had to wait till that chapter of my life was over, but I was like, Oh my gosh, I want to do this, I want to do that.

26:12 I like all these things. I just didn't have the time or the bandwidth, the mental capacity to do it all at the time. But you know, things will fall out of place and you're already doing a lot. Your YouTube videos, your TikTok videos, you're doing a great job of advocating Cassie, being that you want to help people in the recovery community learn more about kratom. When I interviewed you for the podcast or your solo episode with me, you know, you talked very passionately about that. So how would you help in the stigma regarding kratom as a harm reduction tool in recovery? Good question. I mean, you're doing the videos, you're, you're putting that information out there, which I think is a big part of it. Yeah, like I said, I just want to put out the correct information. If I don't know the information, you know, guide them in the right direction to find it.

27:04 The biggest thing is helping people who are new to it. I mean, obviously those are mostly who want to learn about it, but just get the correct information out there. Trying to keep it safe for all the people that I can keep it safe for, like just trying to educate them on how to start out rather than just going and buying the wrong crap. Yeah. And getting even more in addiction, not helping it just. I'm glad that didn't happen to you because yeah, because you don't do it. Me too. I mean, it did almost, yeah. Luckily, yeah, I had that at started accidentally with that extract enhanced and you know, luckily it wasn't anything crazy. It was powder and it was just a little bit more potent than than, but still, you know what I mean? I could.

27:55 Have. Oh yeah. I could have bought anything and I remember now too, when I was purchasing my first kratom at the smoke shop, they were trying to push them shots on me and at that time I had no clue, no idea, but I knew. I don't know how I knew, but something told me I was just like, no, I'm not ready for that yet. I just felt like it was the way that I perceived it when I was in there was that it was the creme de la creme of the kratom. And I was just like, OK, I want to start off, you know, slow. And I just thought it was like, but it's not just not. Well, you know, these smoke shops, they make so much money with those extracts and now these 70 H products. And so many times people as consumers are not educated on all this and don't even really understand. I know when you told your story to me, you, you're like, you know, they just told you, hey, buy this and you didn't even realize it was extract powder.

28:55 But how were you to know? Because you were learning. And they didn't even know anything about it. They had no clue what they were even saying. They had no idea what they were selling. And most of the smoke shops, the employees in there do not know nothing about it. That's scary. It is scary, especially when you've got those 708 products out there that. You know, at least like when you walk out here in Colorado, you know, we can just walk into a weed dispensary and at least the bud tenders behind the counters know where someone should start. And it's never with the abstracts that have like 98% THC. You know, you always want to start off with the flower, right? You know, at least the bud tenders are educated. I don't know if there's like a safe, like a safety type thing that they have meeting where they're like, hey, you got this is how you got to do it.

29:47 When the new newbie comes in, maybe we could pave the way to have freaking smoke shops do this. Yeah, you know what I've been trying to think so much about what to to do with the smoke shop. Like I'm trying to get ideas just to. I just thought, honestly feel like if we walk in there with a how to pamphlet, it's just going to go in the trash. You know? They want their money. Yeah. Tons of money. I'm just wondering if there's just some way to help educate where they're more receptive, you know, to, to just get some education because it benefits them. You know, I, I think so Misty, my question for you is in what ways do you think it kind of going along these lines?

30:29 In what ways do you think the recovery community could benefit from more education about kratom? They're just hearing the hearsay most times and spew and all that. We see it every day on TikTok and other social media. But do you think like, finding ways to get in with some recovery centers that are open to this to help like, like we did, like we live streamed with the kratom gals that time where John Schoenholzer spoke at a recovery center and like, that doesn't happen very often. We don't see that very often, but they were very receptive to have them come in. They were receptive for to have John Schinholzer come in, but they were also shunned from the abstinence based recovery center or recovery space.

31:10 You know, like how dare John to come in there and talk about alternative pathway to recovery with a, you know, non FDA approved. Well, you know, probably a lot of that too is about money as well, because, you know. My advice would be to allow the Johnson holders to come in. And speak like I said, I want to be a part of that in any way I could. Like I'm just, I'm constantly like trying to think of ways to do all these things. I think you should get with him and, and, you know, brainstorm some ideas and, and see, and I'm sure y'all could like start a whole army of people just like the two of y'all that have used kratom in your recovery efforts and help put gasoline on that to help get that message further out.

32:04 I know, I know it's hard in the recovery community. They're not very accepting of kratom, but something's got to change and y'all have stories that are so compelling. That's why I want to have you on the podcast to talk about this. I think this just makes for a great discussion. Who knows, maybe just some people in the recovery space, they just need to hear this episode and just hear what you'll have to say. At least be open minded to that, that maybe that's an end. You know, these Part 1 and Part 2 of this podcast episode talking about kratom in addiction and recovery. That maybe if instead of like, hey, have us come in and talk. It's listen to this podcast episode. We got a couple of episodes and plus John Shinholder's been on the podcast with his episode with me. His story's so compelling.

32:47 Y'all of each have been on on your own with me. But then having this like more of a round table discussion. Maybe this is an easier way to try to get it in with some of these places It's. 2025 you know, allow alternative pathways to recovery thrive. Yeah, I mean, because obviously it's still a huge problem. Yeah, and people can't recover, you know, and I know that's a harm reduction, like Narcan saying that dead people can't recover, but it's so damn true, you know, stop shaming people if they don't recover the way that you want them to recover. Those 20 plus people that we lost from the program, they didn't, you know, I mean, I saw so many people go in and leave and go in and leave.

33:40 It's just like, you know, a revolving door. But like people who weren't ready to make that step. They would walk down the road and then, you know, think that they could go do the same dose that they were doing before they went in there or it's laced with fentanyl or whatever the case is and done just like that after one shot or whatever and it's gone. They didn't have a chance, you know what I mean? I know people that went in 2-3 times and then finally got it. I went once. I know people who've been sick 7-8 times. You know, it's just. Like you know when I when I feel. Good, but it's not the answer.

34:23 When I found Kratom, I was not looking for recovery. Recovery wasn't even in in my path at all. I was like, you know what? I just need something to help with my withdrawals, you know, because I was still going to find another pain management doctor or I was going to do that heroin. Like I always say, I was just inches away from doing heroin because I rationalized with myself that doing cocaine first would be the smarter move. And so when I found kratom, I accidentally found my recovery. And then here I am trying to preach about it on social media and I got so much backlash from the AANA community, from some people in the Mac community, but I still will not bend over and take it up the ass with no Vaseline.

35:07 I'm going to get my message out there. I'm going to continue striving and surviving and thriving in life and show it on social media. If there's people out there like you who want a white knuckle recovery, there's people out here like me that are recovered because of a plant, right? Right. Yeah. Societies, you know, the boxes that people want other people to fit in. I don't even know what that would be called. But yeah, I just don't even. Yeah, you cannot. It is so important to get your story out because you could say one thing like a certain situation or one benefit or anything like that and somebody hears that they went through the same thing or they're looking for the same answer.

35:58 Like that's why it's important, you know, people are trying to find solutions, people are trying to find help, people are trying to find things that are not man made and synthetic all the damn time. It's super important to Share your story because there's somebody out there. You're not alone. There's somebody out there who's gone through the same thing or something similar. So I want to ask y'all each to share. What lessons have you learned that you'd like to share with others who might be struggling with addiction? Lessons as in using kratom as your pathway to recovery. Well, I yeah, I think just for anybody listening in right now and maybe they're struggling with addiction, they're hearing about kratom for the first time, or maybe they've heard it a few times but don't really know much about it.

36:45 You know you want recovery, you're just afraid to take that step. It's the fear of the unknown. So my suggestion to you would be to put that stuff down, pick up lab tested whole leaf powder kratom and begin your journey and you will be where we are today. Don't give up. Keep your journal. What's your thought, Cassie? Same exact thing. I will say this though, when you're in active addiction, you're looking for anything and everything to feel better. Why not try a natural plant to help with all of those things coming off of that? And it's just, I mean, it's recovery and a leaf. Because when you're in like I was in active addiction for 11 years straight, and once you've been in addiction for so long, you're no longer getting high.

37:43 You're only taking your DLC to get well, to stave off of the withdrawals because you know they're coming. And that's why I say when I found kratom, I wasn't looking for recovery. I was just looking for something to help with withdrawals. It accidentally pressed pause in my brain from craving my sad substances so that I could take a step back and work on my wives of addiction and. Then what if somebody's listening and but they're still feeling hesitant? But what would you say? It's only you and yourself back. Yeah. And I would say though, if you're hesitant, just follow all of us and listen to everything. Watch everything. Get all the education. Madeline has the excellent classroom on. Create a real talk.

38:28 Larry Freedom, real talk. I am so sorry. There's like freedom gals. It's like so much to remember. I know I sometimes have a hard time trying to like. But yeah, she has a lot of good information. Get educated from people like us who are responsible consumers and we only use whole leaf powder lab tested, GMP qualified and that advocate for it because we're sharing our story. We have the addiction and recovery experience and also the kratom experience and listen to our stories. Just learn and give it a chance. Don't give up.

39:08 If you're high on your DLC right now and you're listening to this podcast, I guarantee you, you're going to think we're full of shit. It happened to me, you know, because I saw that 2018 Hamilton's Pharmacopia episode, you know, about kratom. But I was high on my Percocets at the time when I was watching it, and I kept screaming at my TV like, you are so full of shit. Ain't no damn way that leaf is doing that for you. Whatever, you know? And then 2019, you know, June of 2019 was when I was flipping through Netflix and watch that documentary A Leap of Faith. So universe will throw signs at you even while you're in active addiction, but you're choosing to ignore those little hints. So just know we're not full of shit. And I mean, you have to when you're ready. I mean it.

40:02 I know it sounds crazy all, all the time to stay in miracle plant, miracle plant. But I have never ever. Even thought that there was something that would help people the way that it does as far as withdrawals and recovery and mental health and pain and like it literally is like you say Madeleine, a pharmacy just it does it all. It's not the cure all for everything and it's not for everyone, but it's great. It's. The. Swiss It's saved our life. Yes, yes. It's an amazing plant and it's changed so many lives. It's saved a lot of lives.

40:44 If anybody's listening and and they want to hear more stories about kratom for addiction and recovery, just go to kramestoriespodcast.com. When you're actually on the website. What's really cool is you can go in the navigation, go to where it says episodes, and when you click on it, there's a pull down menu and I have them all categorized. All the episodes are categorized in there. And if you want to specifically find the ones about addiction, you can go there and just go listen to those. And I guarantee you for anybody listening that is looking for an alternative, hearing those stories and you know, Misty's been on the podcast twice with me interviewing her. Cassie's been on the podcast.

41:26 We've had so many amazing people share their kratom journey with me and how they use kratom in their recovery. So I definitely urge people to take a listen. Y'all, this has been so great. I really appreciate y'all doing this as two parts with me because when we did Part 1, there was just still so much more I wanted to discuss with y'all. So thank you for for spending time and, and doing this Part 2. I'll be sure to link in the show notes all the individual episodes. So so you know, twice when I've had Misty on when I've had you on Cassie. Plus the first part of this, John Shinholzer, like all the amazing stories so others can go and a leap of faith because that's what started it for so many of us, is this documentary that we can watch for free on YouTube. Yeah, that was one of my research things too. When I, you know, while I joined all the groups and got your podcast and I mean, just everything I could do, I had done that and then be on the lookout for the. Green miracle documentary.

42:25 That right, right. Directed and produced by Richard and Tim Chacol. Yeah, that's going to be. Really excited about that. But yeah, I watched the leaf, a leaf of Faith during my, you know, research and everything. It was great. A great thing to watch to learn about it. So that's another thing. There's so many resources and we have so many. And yeah, if you need anything, we got some information. We gotcha. Anybody listening you need information, we gotcha. Well, thank you all both so much. This has been great. You're very welcome, this has been fun. Thank you for listening. You can get more information at kratomstoriespodcast.com, including show notes from this episode.