Ep 64: Beyond the Prescription: Kacey’s Journey with Kratom and Chronic Pain

1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,920
But if it wasn't for things like
kratom on the market right now,

2
00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:06,920
I don't know how a lot of us
would be here, you know what I

3
00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,360
mean?
Because I know at least five

4
00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:13,160
people that are abandoned to
that are more affected than me,

5
00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:22,400
if that's possible, you know?
Welcome to Kratom Stories, a

6
00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,840
weekly podcast where we share
stories of how this amazing

7
00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,840
plant has changed our lives.
I'm your host, Madeleine Sklar.

8
00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,680
Each week I'll bring you a new
episode featuring interviews

9
00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,920
with experts, advocates, and
everyday people who've

10
00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,760
experienced the benefits of
kratom first hand.

11
00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,400
Join me as we dive deeper into
the world of this botanical

12
00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,440
wonder and discover the amazing
stories behind this incredible

13
00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:53,320
plant.
The Kratom Stories Podcast is

14
00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:55,200
presented solely for educational
purposes.

15
00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:57,840
Neither the podcast nor its host
promote or endorse the use of

16
00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,320
kratom, a substance not yet
regulated or approved by the

17
00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:02,200
FDA.
The views and opinions expressed

18
00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,920
by guests are theirs alone and
do not necessarily reflect those

19
00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,400
of the host or the podcast.
The content is not intended as a

20
00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:09,720
substitute for professional
medical advice, diagnosis, or

21
00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:11,320
treatment.
Always seek the advice of your

22
00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:13,520
physician or other qualified
healthcare provider with any

23
00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:14,960
questions regarding the use of
kratom.

24
00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,120
Before we dive into today's
episode, I want to let you know

25
00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,400
about Kratom Real Talk.
It's a new community for

26
00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:29,600
positive, uplifting discussions
about the power of whole leaf

27
00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:31,680
kratom.
If you'd like to be part of the

28
00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,360
conversation and learn more
about this plate or contribute

29
00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,520
your knowledge, go to
kratomrealtalk.com.

30
00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,920
So I'm here with Casey, a lady I
found on TikTok with a video

31
00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,440
about kratom.
I'm like Oh my gosh, her story

32
00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,600
is so similar to mine.
So Casey, I'm so glad you said

33
00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,680
yes to coming on the podcast.
I can't wait to hear your story.

34
00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,560
It's so interesting when I find
fellow kratom consumers on

35
00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,880
TikTok that just post a random
video like you did and I was

36
00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,919
like it stopped me in my tracks.
I'm so glad it showed up in my

37
00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,200
feed.
Well, thank you for having me

38
00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,360
and I appreciate people that
talk about this because I know

39
00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,040
we've mentioned there's a lot of
misinformation about it, like

40
00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,640
different things that we use,
and kratom is one of those, so

41
00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,200
I'm happy to help.
Yeah, well, let's start first

42
00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,120
with you telling us a little bit
about yourself and life before

43
00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:28,440
kratom.
Sure.

44
00:02:28,640 --> 00:02:31,280
My name is Casey.
I am 40 years old.

45
00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,960
I just turned 40 and I have
three boys.

46
00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:39,400
I have a lot of health issues so
I have hypermobile Ehler Stanley

47
00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,760
syndrome which is a connective
tissue disorder.

48
00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,680
I have scoliosis.
I've had several surgeries and

49
00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,960
couple failed surgeries,
stenosis, degenerative disk

50
00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,520
disease.
I've had a lot of I have POTS.

51
00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:56,400
I have a lot of comorbidities
with my physical function.

52
00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:01,200
I have 3 kids, my oldest is 20
and he's in the military and I

53
00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:05,000
have a 14 year old and a nine
year old that I homeschool.

54
00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:07,560
I'm married and we live in North
Carolina.

55
00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:13,280
So I, I guess that's really like
the best synopsis of me.

56
00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:17,400
I hate to say that my diagnosis
is a really kind of who I am,

57
00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,040
but honestly right now it's
controlling my life.

58
00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:24,240
So that's really the best
explanation of where I am now in

59
00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:25,360
life.
Yeah.

60
00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,280
How long have you been suffering
with all these medical

61
00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,920
conditions?
So I was diagnosed with

62
00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:34,560
scoliosis at age 11 and they
told me when they found it and

63
00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,800
it was 17° and it wasn't an S
curve that it would not curve

64
00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,840
anymore and I didn't need to be
braced and all this other stuff.

65
00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,400
Well, I started having kids and
my back progressively got worse.

66
00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:52,600
So it went from 17° and no
bottom curve to 30, 2° on top

67
00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,080
and 41° on bottom.
And it's just progressively

68
00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,880
gotten worse and my hips are off
center now I'm twisted in the

69
00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:02,040
middle.
There's a little bit of rotation

70
00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:06,080
with my core and I have a lot of
problems with like my joints

71
00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,040
dislocate or partially
dislocate.

72
00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,920
And they didn't know that I had
the connective tissue disorder

73
00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:15,800
until last year.
So I just got that missing piece

74
00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,760
of the puzzle.
But I have been severely

75
00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,920
affected.
It started in 2019, but I've

76
00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,600
been struggling with pain since
I was a child.

77
00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,760
Wow.
So when did you get into pain

78
00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:29,200
management?
When did that come into the

79
00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,080
picture?
So I've been in and out of pain

80
00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,120
management since I was 19.
When I was pregnant with my

81
00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,400
first son I had a kidney stone
while I was pregnant that got

82
00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,800
stuck in the ureter and they had
to do a stent.

83
00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,200
The stent broke while it was in
my back and they had to go back

84
00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,440
in and remove it.
I had a lot of problems with

85
00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:51,720
that pregnancy, but shortly
after I had my first child is

86
00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,880
when my pain kind of vamped up.
And that's really common with

87
00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,000
Eller Sandler's.
Like pregnancy seems to really

88
00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,080
kick things into high gear.
So I started in pain management

89
00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,800
at 20 and I was kind of in and
out of it.

90
00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:08,440
I've always used it as kind of,
I would go for like couple

91
00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,240
months and then you know, stop
for a year or go for a year and

92
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,800
then stop for a few years
because I knew that I didn't

93
00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:17,280
want to be on the meds all the
time.

94
00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:20,560
There's a lot of side effects
that I mean you have to go every

95
00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,120
month.
So I've been in and out of pain

96
00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:28,240
management for 20 years and I
was in pain management steadily

97
00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:35,880
from 2017 to 2020.
The last year, what started all

98
00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:41,640
of it was I had a disc that
caved in at L5 S 1, so it was

99
00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,480
pressing on my sciatic nerve
root and I was also having a lot

100
00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:47,920
of dystonia.
And you know what happens with

101
00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:49,080
that?
It's not pretty.

102
00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,080
But anyway they had to do
surgery.

103
00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:56,320
So they started surgery in the
summer of 2021 and I was in pain

104
00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:58,040
management the whole time,
stable.

105
00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,280
The first surgery they did a
micro discectomy, it failed

106
00:06:01,280 --> 00:06:05,880
within 72 hours and then I had
another surgery within a month

107
00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,040
is same thing micro discectomy,
it failed, held within a week

108
00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,120
and then they did a fusion.
This all happened within four

109
00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,560
months.
So they did an L5S1 fusion in

110
00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,800
November and it has not helped
at all.

111
00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,840
And this was all with the
understanding that they would be

112
00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:27,320
doing a very large fusion for it
to correct my scoliosis from T10

113
00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,160
to S1.
They were never set up to do

114
00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,480
that large fusion and they knew
the whole time.

115
00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:37,640
So they fused L5 S one and we're
planning on pushing me off to

116
00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,680
another hospital.
And this happens a lot.

117
00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:46,040
So during all that, my pain
clinic was shut down, My doctor

118
00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,240
lost his license and the pain
clinic was shut down.

119
00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,000
And that's how I found the
doctor patient for him.

120
00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:56,320
But I was using kratom in
between when I would have

121
00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,920
prescriptions during that time,
because while you're having

122
00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,040
surgery, they would only give
you a prescription for acute

123
00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,880
pain for three to five days and
you'd have to call in every week

124
00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,040
to get a refill.
And I was doing this for a year

125
00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,880
and a half during surgeries, and
I would end up without a

126
00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,640
prescription over a holiday
weekend or they wouldn't get

127
00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,600
back to you.
And you know this, Madeline, But

128
00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,240
if you don't make your surgeon
write your medicine, pain

129
00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,440
management will not pick that
up, OK, because they're very

130
00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:26,800
compartmentalized.
So I wasn't going to let the

131
00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,960
surgeon off the hook.
Well, I found kratom kind of

132
00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:34,040
during that time and was using
it when I didn't have my pain

133
00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,280
meds.
And it helped enough where I

134
00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,040
wasn't.
Not necessarily.

135
00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:42,040
It doesn't help as much as, you
know, FDA opiates, but it helps

136
00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,560
enough that when I am in crisis,
it knocks the edge just off

137
00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,160
enough so that I can work
through it.

138
00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,880
You know what I mean?
And after that I found another,

139
00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,520
there was another clinic locally
that was accepting that clinic

140
00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,000
patients and that was a
nightmare.

141
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,760
They cut my dosage in half
immediately and I waited six

142
00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,680
months to start with them.
And then, you know, it starts in

143
00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,720
with the they'll see you for a
year and then suddenly they drop

144
00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,360
you for no reason.
And mine was because I was a

145
00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,960
complex patient, my age and all
this other stuff.

146
00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,640
There was no behavior issue or
anything like that.

147
00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,000
They just dropped me.
And then when I tried to go find

148
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,320
another clinic, I've called and
I've checked with clinics going

149
00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:32,000
out four hours one way in almost
every direction from my

150
00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,280
hometown.
And I'm in a rural part of North

151
00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,880
Carolina.
And every single clinic that I

152
00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,240
called wanted to set up epidural
steroid injections for the first

153
00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:44,240
appointment in order to be seen.
Now, I've done those four times.

154
00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,720
I was hurt really badly with
one.

155
00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,720
I had an injury with an epidural
once.

156
00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,120
And you're not supposed to get
injections in your spine if you

157
00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,520
have other Stamos that increases
the risk of ACSF leak or other

158
00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,720
problems.
And so they won't even talk to

159
00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,880
you if you can't get the
epidural steroid injections.

160
00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,480
So I've not found another pain
management clinic.

161
00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,920
And I'll be honest, freedom is
the only reason that I have

162
00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:14,520
probably not analyzed myself
that and my CBDTHC, you know,

163
00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,320
combination.
But it doesn't help as much as

164
00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,920
our FDA approved opiates, you
know, all the time.

165
00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,200
It does help on the day-to-day.
And I'll be honest, Madeline, I

166
00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,560
feel like kratom could help
people that may not be as high

167
00:09:28,560 --> 00:09:32,640
on the pain scale to avoid stuff
like tramadol with the awful

168
00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,920
side effects and these like
gabapentin and Lyrica because I

169
00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,680
have horrific allergies to
certain medications and

170
00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:43,040
reactions.
As a matter of fact, when I had

171
00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,360
my fusion, I had a reaction to
meds coming out of anesthesia,

172
00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,720
tried to pull my inflated
catheter out because I was just

173
00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,280
out of my mind.
And they tried to call security

174
00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,560
on me.
They were not trying to help.

175
00:09:55,560 --> 00:09:59,440
It wasn't anything like that.
And it was like 18 hours before

176
00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,440
they got me under control.
So it was a really horrific

177
00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,560
experience.
But I feel like they are trying

178
00:10:06,560 --> 00:10:08,880
to mess with our meds too much
and they need to get out of our

179
00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,400
doctor's offices.
You know, we just are trying to

180
00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:12,680
live.
Right.

181
00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:14,960
Wow, Casey, you've been through
a lot.

182
00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,200
It.
Yeah, a lot, A lot, A lot.

183
00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,280
It's been a lot.
And before that, you know, a lot

184
00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:25,400
of people have accused me of not
being sympathetic to the opioid

185
00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,040
epidemic because that's another
part of this, right?

186
00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,880
And I am very sympathetic to the
opioid epidemic.

187
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,200
My oldest two boys, my first
husband died of a drug overdose

188
00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:40,680
in 2013 suddenly.
And I know all too well the risk

189
00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:43,760
of illicit fentanyl coming over
the border.

190
00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:48,040
But trying to control our
medicines, including kratom, is

191
00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,080
not the answer to that.
They are making the problem much

192
00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,000
worse.
I agree 100%.

193
00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,760
Wow so so many questions I don't
even know where to begin.

194
00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,200
I'm.
So sorry it's so hard to get all

195
00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,200
that in.
This is this is this is so good.

196
00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,360
I mean, wow.
I mean, good in the sense that

197
00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,600
like it's a lot of information
and I know this is helping

198
00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,280
people that are listening.
So before the disruption in your

199
00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,320
pain meds, when you're able to
get them consistently, how well

200
00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,520
did it work?
I mean how much lower did it

201
00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,800
bring your pain level?
And so when I was in this, thank

202
00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,200
you for asking that the way that
you did when I was adequately

203
00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:31,840
medicated, it lowered my pain
level from about an 8 to I would

204
00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,560
say A4, right.
So it was all, it was a

205
00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:40,520
substantial, I got 50% relief
and that was very helpful.

206
00:11:40,560 --> 00:11:45,720
Now, when they cut my meds in
half, we're talking about 10%

207
00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:47,200
helpful.
You know what I mean?

208
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,280
Because you're coming from
behind.

209
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,160
And when I don't know if a lot
of people realize this, but when

210
00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,760
you were in pain all the time
and not sleeping and not able to

211
00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,640
eat, you are chasing that pain
level.

212
00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:02,080
And if it gets too far out of
control, you will end up in a

213
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,800
crisis episode that could last
up to a week.

214
00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,280
And it's horrific.
Cyclical vomiting, migraines,

215
00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,880
seizures, there's, there's a lot
of stuff that goes with it and

216
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,680
that's part of it, you know?
It is, yeah.

217
00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:16,920
People that don't suffer from
pain I don't think really

218
00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:18,880
understand the things that we go
through.

219
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,480
And you have to always stay
ahead of the pain and and be

220
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,280
medicating on a schedule so
that.

221
00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,840
Yeah, if you get behind.
Yeah, it's hard.

222
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:29,560
Yeah, I know.
I get it.

223
00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:32,040
And I remember those days very
well.

224
00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:34,040
And it was, it was not pleasant
at all.

225
00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,360
You're painting a picture that
that's so easy for all of us to

226
00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,800
understand because many of us
have been through those same

227
00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:41,520
things.
So it sounds like your pain

228
00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:46,840
relief was really well done.
When you're getting consistent

229
00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:51,480
medication, yes, boy, if you've
had a lot of disruption in it,

230
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:55,800
that's, I can't even imagine at
your age raising a family.

231
00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,760
And it's just sounds like it's a
constant roller coaster.

232
00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,800
Yeah, and I think the hardest
part of all of this, Madeline,

233
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:06,440
is I have seen 4 specialists,
gone to several hospitals and

234
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,320
traveling for me is really
difficult because walking,

235
00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,040
moving around is hard, right,
Because my back is just so

236
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,480
messed up and it causes a lot of
leg issues.

237
00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,720
So I can't drive and my husband
is the only one working.

238
00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,720
But what has been the hardest is
seeing so many doctors and I've

239
00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:26,320
had three hospitals tell me that
I need surgery, do the meeting

240
00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,440
with all of the spine surgeons,
tell me that I need to schedule

241
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,480
it, and then get ghosted by the
hospital.

242
00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,320
I've had to call or have a
virtual appointment set up.

243
00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,720
There was a Duke set up, I think
it was 7 virtual appointments

244
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,240
that they didn't show for.
And this is happening across the

245
00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,000
board.
Like I've reached out to the

246
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,840
Cleveland Clinic, they got back
in touch with me, got my records

247
00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,120
up there, ghosted.
Then you get in touch with

248
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,240
another doctor, ghosted.
I actually have a video call

249
00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,080
with one of my doctors today,
but I do not have out of my

250
00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,400
specialist that I had starting
into this.

251
00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,000
I have at least five more
diagnosis is including a nervous

252
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,280
system disorder now that I did
not start into this with and it

253
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,440
didn't start until my pain meds
were pulled.

254
00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:13,400
So all of that to say that they
have not actually treated me for

255
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,840
anything.
I've gotten all these diagnosis

256
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:20,240
but no help and nobody is
actually doing anything.

257
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,360
Do you know what I mean?
So there's no progress.

258
00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,000
It's just they've made money the
whole time and I am more

259
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:27,640
disabled now than I was at the
beginning.

260
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:28,960
Wow.
So.

261
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:30,760
Why do you think they're
ghosting you?

262
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:36,840
I think it is a systemic problem
and I I have found that it is a

263
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:42,680
really big problem and very
large hospitals with spine

264
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,640
surgeons specifically.
I don't know if it's because of

265
00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:50,440
their staff, I don't know what
it is, but I have found if the

266
00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:55,040
front staff, including like the
secretary, is not on their game,

267
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,440
that is how the doctor is going
to be every single time.

268
00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,640
So if you're first experience
with the person that you're

269
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,800
talking to is not phenomenal and
you don't feel taken care of,

270
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,120
leave because that's how it's
going to be.

271
00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,520
And stay away from Duke Hospital
right now.

272
00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,960
They are a crap show.
Wow, sounds like you could write

273
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,680
a book about all of this.
I want to one day if I can ever

274
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:21,080
get a little bit regulation, I
would love to so, but we're

275
00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:22,680
we're just trying.
Yeah, right.

276
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:24,720
Eventually.
Yeah, wow.

277
00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,040
Has the ladies at the Doctor
Patient Forum been able to help

278
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,440
you?
So I so I've done I think 3

279
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:37,480
podcasts, Bev and I have, I met
Bev in 2019 or 2020 online and

280
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,800
she has been one of my list and
I don't know what I would do

281
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:41,680
without them.
They've helped me so much.

282
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,200
I had Bev on an earbud and a
doctor's appointment one time

283
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,680
and she's the only reason I
didn't have a nervous breakdown

284
00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:48,840
in there.
You know what I mean?

285
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,680
I and I'll be honest now, this
whole thing, I didn't go into

286
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,360
this knowing to record
conversations with my doctors.

287
00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,880
I didn't know because I would
have never thought that I needed

288
00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,480
proof as to what they said.
I have had doctors bold faced

289
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,480
lie to me from 1.1 appointment
to the other.

290
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,080
And I'm not, this is not an
exaggeration.

291
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:13,760
I'm talking about you cannot get
continuity of information from

292
00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:15,560
the insurance company from the
doctors.

293
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,240
And if you switch to a new
specialist, they may tell you

294
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,240
something completely different.
And so we, and I say, me, it's

295
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:23,760
the other chronic illness
people.

296
00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,840
But so for every one of us,
there's fifty behind us that we

297
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,400
know that are still pushing for
the same thing.

298
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,280
But we started recording our
appointments because we needed

299
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,400
proof.
And I can't tell you how often

300
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,160
that's come in handy.
But if it wasn't for things like

301
00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,560
kratom on the market right now,
I don't know how a lot of us

302
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,160
would be here.
You know what I mean?

303
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,000
Because I know at least five
people that are abandoned too,

304
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,520
that are more effective than me,
if that's possible, you know?

305
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,040
Yeah.
And so let's talk about kratom

306
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,280
because it's interesting that
you found it and you've been

307
00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,360
using it when you're not able to
get your meds.

308
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,200
So how did you first hear about
kratom?

309
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:03,560
How did it even get on your
radar?

310
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:04,400
Do you?
Remember.

311
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:10,839
Yeah, a friend of mine was, her
husband had Ms. and he was also

312
00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:13,440
at a pain clinic and he was
having a hard time getting his

313
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,079
meds at that.
Like we all started experiencing

314
00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:18,400
the same thing at the same time.
I'm sure you did, too.

315
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:22,480
So when he was desperately sick
one night because he didn't have

316
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,640
his meds, they found that she
got some or her doctor had

317
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,280
mentioned it and she found some
and tried it and it helped just

318
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,480
take the edge off of those worst
symptoms, you know, when you

319
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,760
don't have your medicine for the
1st 24 hours.

320
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,120
And I was like, well, that's
great because he'd been on his

321
00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:41,080
meds for 20 years, you know what
I mean?

322
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,680
And I was like if it kept him
from crawling up the walls that

323
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,120
night.
So I got some and it was powder

324
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,680
and it was from a gas station
and I wasn't crazy about it and

325
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,400
it was not the strain that I
ended up landing on.

326
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,160
And I asked Bev with the doctor
patient for him and she sent me

327
00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:01,080
all kinds of information for
safe years, you know, and I

328
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,680
found cats in Tennessee and the
rest is history.

329
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,720
So tried a couple different
strains, found the ones that

330
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,400
worked for me.
And that's, that's the only

331
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:11,720
thing you know, that's what I do
now.

332
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,760
That's so right now you're
currently just using kratom

333
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,120
only.
Yeah, I get muscle relaxers,

334
00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:21,600
which I mean, that's not that
great, but they do help a little

335
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,000
bit.
And then I use kratom, my muscle

336
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,520
relaxers, and then I have like a
CBDTHC.

337
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,440
It's the legal version of the
vape that I used.

338
00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:35,320
And I have CBD healing salve
from a place called Frannie's

339
00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,720
Pharmacy, and it is a topical
balm.

340
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:39,280
Let me tell you, that stuff is
the best.

341
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,720
It helps with aches, pains,
joints.

342
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:43,760
It even helps with that time of
the month.

343
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:48,240
So and that stuff's really good.
But those need to be in my

344
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,280
toolbox along with, you know,
FDA approved opiates as well.

345
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,400
Because I feel like I could use
Kratom on the days that was,

346
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,600
that weren't as bad or if
because I like to stop going to

347
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:04,520
the pain clinic every so often
to reset that You're not what's

348
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,800
the word?
I'm looking for tolerance.

349
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,200
OK, 'cause after so long you
don't want to keep going up.

350
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,600
So I would stop to reset my
tolerance.

351
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,680
Well, during that time to reset
tolerance, it would be really

352
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,960
helpful to have kratom, you know
what I mean?

353
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,560
But pain doctors don't want to
hear that pain patients do that

354
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,360
themselves, that we control all
of that.

355
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:25,760
They don't want to hear it.
They think that we are all just

356
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,320
feeding for medicine and that we
can't wait to get in there and

357
00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,680
take it.
And I seriously think that they

358
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,480
think that we go through our
kratom bottles like in two, two

359
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,880
days when we get them.
And I'm just like, we don't take

360
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:37,920
it like that.
You know what?

361
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,160
I don't take it like that.
Yeah, so your doctor knows that

362
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,920
you use kratom?
Yes, my SO I have a PCP that is

363
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:46,360
a Unicorn.
He's amazing.

364
00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:50,000
And he does know that I use, I
tell all my doctors that I'm

365
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,440
using that because they ask, let
me tell you something else.

366
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,640
Every specialist I get to you,
Madeline, they say, what are you

367
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,640
doing for pain?
OK, They all ask me because they

368
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,480
know we need pain management,
but they can't offer anything

369
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,880
for pain, right?
And when you say kratom, they

370
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:07,640
just nod because they've heard
it.

371
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,440
They know about kratom, they're
all familiar with it.

372
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:15,640
So I have been labeled at an ER
once as a drug user because

373
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,280
kratom showed up and I used
these.

374
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:22,280
Oh, that's crazy.
Oh my God, Yeah, so.

375
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:27,720
A plant, a tea leaf, right Well.
Here's the other part too I I

376
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:32,400
admit I use CBD and I told you I
buy the legal vapes that you can

377
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,200
get in all 50 states.
OK.

378
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,960
They also will label you for
those if they pop up any used to

379
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,720
get an ER and I just heard a
couple people's videos saying

380
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,040
that they didn't realize that
you were drug tested when you go

381
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,480
to the ER.
My experiences, I've been been

382
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,880
drug tested every single time
I've been to the ER since I was

383
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,400
19, you know what I mean?
So I don't know if maybe

384
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,000
different parts of the country
do things differently, but here

385
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:01,480
they are very much going to test
you every time you go in and

386
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,440
that's OK.
But yeah, it's amazing to me

387
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:10,560
that plants that you can buy and
you go into the ER and they

388
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,920
accuse you of being a drug user
and you're like, no, if I was a

389
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,920
drug user, it wouldn't be
kratom, you know what I mean?

390
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,480
I'd be on street corner.
Like, right.

391
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:21,440
Exactly.
Well, it just shows how

392
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,240
misinformed they are.
There's so much misinformation

393
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,720
and propaganda out there.
I mean, that's why I'm a loud,

394
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,720
proud advocate, because I'm
trying to change that narrative

395
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,480
because so much pad
information's out there and it

396
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,440
just, it's crazy.
That was another thing I wanted

397
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,440
to bring up, Madeline, is I know
that you've seen the parents out

398
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,480
there and God love them.
I want to say my heart goes out

399
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:44,560
to you.
We feel for you.

400
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,160
We are so sorry.
We hope we are praying and I am

401
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,000
so sorry.
But as with my first husband

402
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,240
that passed, his autopsy had
multiple substances.

403
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,440
He was not just using one
substance.

404
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,040
He used anything he could get
his hands on.

405
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,320
He had alcohol in his system.
He had benzos in his system, he

406
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,800
had heroin in his system, and I
don't know what else at this

407
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,800
point because I can't remember,
but I will tell you that

408
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,840
anybody, any story that I see
that says kratom killed

409
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,920
somebody, I am always so
curious.

410
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,080
He was also on gabapentin when
he died.

411
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,120
They had prescribed gabapentin
and he had gone to the hospital

412
00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:29,680
to try to get in treatment.
Six months before he passed,

413
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,880
they sent him home with a
prescription for Clonidine and

414
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,240
gabapentin and he was dead six
months later, no rehab, no

415
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,680
nothing.
So we are missing a huge

416
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,720
component of mental health, kids
not being able to process

417
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,000
trauma.
There is no way to control

418
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,120
emotions.
We're not teaching our kids any

419
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:49,000
way to deal with the horrific
things that happen.

420
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,680
And then whenever we have young
adults that are strung out on

421
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,880
any substance they can get their
hands on, they want to come for

422
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,880
any substance that is actually
helping people.

423
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,800
And they're missing the part
that we need mental health.

424
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,280
We need to make sure that our
kids are emotionally sound and

425
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,560
addicts are a symptom of a
bigger problem.

426
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,920
They are hurting, they need help
and it is not the substance that

427
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,120
they are using that is the
enemy.

428
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,600
So well said.
Yeah, exactly.

429
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,680
And yeah, kratom gets demonized
and and you know, I feel for

430
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,280
those parents too, but there's
always more to these stories.

431
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:28,320
There's so many so-called kratom
deaths where it was Poly drug

432
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,720
use.
And so it seems like so many

433
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,920
times it could be that there was
heroin and prescription drugs

434
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,840
and a whole host of things in
somebody's system when they

435
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,160
pass.
Yet if kratom's in there, many

436
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:41,880
times they just like it is a
kratom.

437
00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:44,200
Yeah.
And it just don't get it, Don't

438
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,800
get it at all.
Well, and the other part too is

439
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,840
I would like for them to look
into the gabapentin being

440
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,120
present in so many of these
deaths.

441
00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:55,000
Nobody's saying anything about
it.

442
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,960
And I love how they just give a
pass to certain drugs.

443
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,320
OK, there's a pass.
It doesn't matter if it's in

444
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,080
their system and then other ones
are completely demonized.

445
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,200
And for those of us that have
weird allergic reactions to

446
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,920
drugs, every non narcotic they
have put me on has caused

447
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,720
horrific.
I've ended up in the hospital's

448
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:19,080
seizures not knowing who I am.
OK but there was one they put me

449
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,200
on tramadol made me feel like I
had bugs crawling all over my

450
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,960
skin.
There was Lyrica was one of the

451
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,840
hardest ones and they forced me
on that to in order for me to

452
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,000
get my pain meds would not let
me come off and then took

453
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,040
suddenly took me off.
They wanted to suddenly take me

454
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,960
off and that was harder to come
off of then anything else

455
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,400
because it was just so long and
it made you feel it messed with

456
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,640
my nervous system.
Do you know what I mean?

457
00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:47,680
And they don't want to talk
about that, but they keep

458
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,920
pushing these non narcotic pain
medicines that are so dangerous

459
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,640
with the side effects, so
dangerous with the long term

460
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,400
effects.
And they tried me on Belbuca at

461
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,720
the pain management clinic.
It ate out the lining of my

462
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,520
mouth and I couldn't don't eat
anything for like 2 weeks.

463
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,640
I mean, when I say that they try
these meds on me and I have

464
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,040
really bad reactions, it's not
just that I am having seizures

465
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,920
or I'm having hives.
It's that it affects me for a

466
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,320
month afterward, you know?
Wow, but you've been through a

467
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,120
lot.
I'm so sorry you had to go

468
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:22,680
through so much.
Let me ask you this.

469
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,400
So with kratom, what does kratom
help you with?

470
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,120
So when you take kratom, is it
helping you with a lot of these

471
00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:33,720
issues that you have and is it
giving you any reactions like

472
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,080
with some of these meds?
No, so kratom does not make me

473
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,640
have reactions.
I started out very low and slow

474
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,120
because I didn't know how I was
going to react to it.

475
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,240
The only thing that it does is
that I have noticed is if I

476
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,640
don't eat right.
If I don't eat it makes me sick

477
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:54,200
to my stomach.
Or one time I had taken my doses

478
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,360
close, I had doubled dosed and
not realized it because I'd

479
00:25:57,360 --> 00:25:59,560
already taken my meds and I
threw up.

480
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:00,960
That was the worst thing that
happened.

481
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:06,360
So it helps, I would say as far
OK, so if an opiate at the right

482
00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:10,880
dose helps me reduce pain by
50%, I would say kratom helps me

483
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:16,280
between 10 to 25% some days,
depending on you know, what my

484
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,920
pain level is.
Now there's other days whenever

485
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,720
I'm in really bad pain if I'm
already vomiting from that, I

486
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,040
can't get the kratom down.
And so you're just kind of

487
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,200
waiting for it.
But if I can stay on top of it

488
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,040
and I don't take kratom every
single day, I take it on my

489
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,840
worst pain days.
So that because kind of save it

490
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,680
for when I really need it, but
it does help and it does not

491
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,600
help with like my pot symptoms.
So if I'm having like

492
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,120
tachycardia or bradycardia or
anything like that, it doesn't

493
00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:47,120
seem to help with that.
But it does help with like my

494
00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:49,960
really severe muscular skeletal
pain.

495
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,480
It tends to help a little bit if
my stenosis is acting up.

496
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,680
I think it helps with
inflammation is what I think,

497
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,720
because I do believe that my
dystonia in my legs starts when

498
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,280
my inflammation, the base of my
spine starts and that stenosis

499
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,120
gets tight and then it'll just
mess up the sciatic nerve and

500
00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:11,480
all that.
And I do think that kratom does

501
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,000
help with that.
Yeah, that's interesting.

502
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,320
And a lot of people do say it
helps with their inflammation

503
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,080
issues.
I feel like it does with mine.

504
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,040
Now, what's interesting for me
personally, kratom has worked

505
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,160
way better than all the opioids
I ever took.

506
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,480
Now I was in pain management for
not.

507
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,400
Now I know the plant works
differently for everybody.

508
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:28,680
Everybody has a different
experience.

509
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:30,480
I wish everybody had the same
experience.

510
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,240
I really do.
I know because everybody's

511
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,400
completely different right now.
I was in pain management for

512
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,960
nine years and I remember that
roller coaster of having to take

513
00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:41,000
tolerance breaks and switching
one medication for another.

514
00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:44,240
And I pretty much had had at
some point used pretty much

515
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,960
every pain meds there was and we
ended up working best for me was

516
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,560
Oxycontin with Percocet for
breakthrough and that that was,

517
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:53,320
but I was at very high doses
too.

518
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,400
My MME was very high, but it's
because my body processed the

519
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,960
meds quickly than the average
person.

520
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,000
And, and the most scary thing
and all that was when I was

521
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,960
taking a tolerance break from
one meds and then we put me on

522
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,400
the fentanyl patch, that
transdermal patch.

523
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,840
And I processed that so, so
quickly.

524
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,280
That number one, I had to
normally is for three days, 72

525
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,120
hours.
I could barely get to two days.

526
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,680
I was more than 1/2 days.
And we started the lowest and

527
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,640
there's three different dosing
levels of those patches.

528
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,960
And this, this is probably about
12 or 14 years ago.

529
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,440
I so quickly had to go the next
level up through it so fast and

530
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,560
my body's processing it ultra
fast.

531
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,640
And that's also with having meds
for breakthroughs.

532
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,400
So I'm also taking, you know,
codons for my breakthrough or

533
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,640
Percocets.
So when I got to that second

534
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,080
one, knowing there's only one
more higher level than that, I

535
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,680
same thing.
I very quickly it's like it

536
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,000
wasn't enough.
And the doctor's like, well, I

537
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,160
can prescribe that next.
I'm like, yeah, but that's the

538
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,200
highest.
Where do you go from here?

539
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,840
Where you know when?
It's one thing if you're like

540
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,000
elderly or like, you know,
you're later in life, but we

541
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,120
still have a lot of years like
where that go from there.

542
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:08,360
That's it.
And.

543
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,600
Here's the hard part for me.
OK?

544
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,080
I have been sick and gaslit this
whole time, OK?

545
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,360
Mind you, a lot of doctors said
that scoliosis wasn't painful.

546
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,880
I have been sick since I was 11.
I've been in pain, serious pain

547
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:26,040
since I was like 25.
But I think the hardest part is

548
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,760
we as patients, we're logical,
We know this.

549
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,520
We don't want to go up to the
highest.

550
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,120
We are trying to find a solution
from the bottom to alleviate

551
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,320
some of the pain so that our
feeling is where it needs to be

552
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,040
when our pain is at crisis
level.

553
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,280
And I feel like the doctors
think that we are running in

554
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,760
there every single time we have
a twinge and like, I need meds.

555
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,120
I need meds now.
And that's not what's happening.

556
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:53,520
We are trying to ration care at
this point and thank God for

557
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:58,120
kratom, but I just get really
frustrated because there's so

558
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,760
many accounts that are set up to
demonize this plant and they're

559
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,320
just like, it's the worst.
It's a drug, it's just like an

560
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,960
opiate.
And that's not my experience

561
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:08,440
with it.
You know what I mean?

562
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,440
Yeah, most of us.
Have a very good experience, not

563
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,040
a -1 but we're also not
overusing it.

564
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,160
I was going to say taking
addictive behaviors from other

565
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:23,040
things and doing well and we're.
Also not abusing our pain meds

566
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,080
when we have them.
Do you know what I mean?

567
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,200
Like, I think that's the
difference.

568
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:32,080
And I feel like the general
public cannot fathom that there

569
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,800
are people that don't take too
much.

570
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,200
I did find out last week and I'm
going to talk to my doctor about

571
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,720
this.
They are labeling people that

572
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,120
have ever been in pain
management, right, for a

573
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:49,320
legitimate reason, like us with
non dependent opioid use

574
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,400
disorder.
And I was like, so they're

575
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,680
giving everybody else substance
use disorder and then the ones

576
00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:00,760
of us that are legit patient,
they're saying non dependent

577
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,600
opioid use disorder.
How is that any better?

578
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,800
They're just going to stigmatize
it further, you know?

579
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,560
Wow.
That's terrible.

580
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:11,480
It is.
I will.

581
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,760
Say one thing, Madeline, what
they've tried me on so many

582
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,320
drugs.
I will say I think the worst

583
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,240
drug that I've ever been put on,
and this was during the time

584
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,880
that they were trying different
drugs and tried me on Belviqa

585
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,840
was when I was in pain
management and they had me on

586
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,360
methadone for a while.
They tried me on methadone

587
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,200
because they were like you need
something around the clock.

588
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,280
That was the worst medicine I've
ever been on.

589
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,360
It was so hard on me.
It was hard on my heart and it

590
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,360
did not help my pain.
It helped like the first week

591
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,680
and then after that it was like
it shut off any receptors.

592
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,440
It was like no matter.
It was just weird.

593
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,440
I've never experienced that and
I had a lot of like side effects

594
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,640
from it.
So I feel like freedom should be

595
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,840
treated more like the legitimate
drug that it is.

596
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,480
I feel that it is much more
legitimate than tramadol.

597
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,440
I feel it is much more
legitimate than gabapentin.

598
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:13,960
And I, I am a big proponent of
SSRISI feel like those are, they

599
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,520
give that to us so much.
And I feel like those are

600
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,600
dangerous as well, you know?
Oh, absolutely.

601
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,560
Wow, it's such an interesting
conversation.

602
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,600
Now you know, I got dropped from
pain management like you did

603
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,000
through no fault of my own.
It happens for me.

604
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,640
This was six years ago and my
first thought was, well, I

605
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,360
couldn't find another doctor to
take over.

606
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,880
So my first thought from that
was, do I have to go to the

607
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:43,440
streets and go buy the meds that
work for me, that I know work

608
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,240
doctor knows that works, but buy
him illegally.

609
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,960
Like I don't think the medical
community understands what

610
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,360
they're doing to us legitimate
pain patients when we're dropped

611
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,480
like that.
And I was so scared.

612
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,960
Like, first of all, I'm like,
how do I find a drug dealer?

613
00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:58,760
I don't even know how to do
this.

614
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,320
You know, it's like, but also it
was just a scary thought.

615
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,400
And that was when that fentanyl
was coming in.

616
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,200
I just remember it was on the
news all the time back when this

617
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,640
was happening to me.
And I remember one time on the

618
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,240
news, on the local news, they
showed the pills.

619
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,360
They looked exactly like my
Percocets.

620
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,240
Exactly.
But they were the fentanyl ones.

621
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:19,760
Yeah.
He wouldn't know the.

622
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:24,000
Difference, right and.
And I was like, Oh my God, I

623
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,000
don't know how I'm going to do
this because every time I take a

624
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,120
pill, like I hadn't done
anything yet, but I was like, I

625
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:30,920
was about to run out of meds.
I'm like, Oh my gosh.

626
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,920
So every time I take a pill for
my pain, I might stop breathing.

627
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,440
Oh my gosh, it's.
So scary and it's like it's.

628
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,120
Such a scary thought.
So thank God a documentary about

629
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,800
kratom popped up in my Netflix
six years ago.

630
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,720
It was exactly 6 years ago
because my memories on Facebook

631
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,640
it just showed the other day.
It was like 6 years ago because

632
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,520
I had done a post because the
documentary was on my Netflix

633
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,640
and I watched it.
I'm like there's a plant.

634
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:58,760
So I posted to my Facebook
friends.

635
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:00,920
I was just curious if anybody
had ever heard of it because I

636
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,960
had never heard of it.
And that was the start of my

637
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,880
journey.
I started doing a bunch of

638
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,080
research.
But what's so interesting,

639
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:12,000
Casey, is that kratom works way
better for me than all the

640
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,000
opiates I took.
And I know everybody's

641
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,040
different.
I just wish people would get the

642
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:20,080
same experience I do because
like you taking the pain meds,

643
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,280
it would give me some quality of
life.

644
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,000
It would bring the pain level
down, but it wouldn't bring it

645
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,880
way down.
Now for me it was more like I

646
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,239
would be at A6 or A7 on a good
day Now a bad day be like 8-8 or

647
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,520
nine.
But on a good day I would get

648
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,280
enough relief so I could still
work and function and do things.

649
00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:40,800
But it was always still there.
It's always top of mind.

650
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,480
Everything you do is a struggle.
But then I lose access.

651
00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:47,400
Tried kratom and took a little
trial and error to figure out

652
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,360
dose and color and all that.
But once I figured it out, my

653
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,800
pain level for my degenerative
disc disease goes to a 0 now.

654
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,920
Mind blowing to me SO and this.
Is why OK?

655
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,960
Because this part is hard for me
because I feel like if I had a

656
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,720
relatively normal spine and it
was just the disc, right?

657
00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:12,040
Or if it was just a little bit
of stenosis, maybe it would be a

658
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,600
little bit different.
But, and especially because it's

659
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:19,920
fused at the bottom, I feel like
I am one of those people that is

660
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,800
at a I'm just at a Max level,
you know what I mean?

661
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,640
A lot of the time.
And I'm not trying to say

662
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,360
anybody else is not as in as
much pain.

663
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,720
I just feel like there's a lot
of pressure coming from my

664
00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:31,680
spine, OK.
And it moves.

665
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,040
And I don't know if, and I'll
say this too, I haven't

666
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:40,600
increased my dosage to try to
see if it helps more because I

667
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,360
don't feel like that it would
necessary I would get any more

668
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,600
benefit from increasing the
dosage.

669
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,000
I feel like that I've come to a
good place and it's where I'm

670
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,960
happy.
But I'm always curious, you

671
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,080
know, and they say not to use
kratom in conjunction with

672
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:59,920
opiates, but I'm always curious,
like, is there some person out

673
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:02,680
there that their body works a
little bit differently and it

674
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:04,840
would work well together?
You know what I mean?

675
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,160
There are so.
I've interviewed several people

676
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,840
in the podcast and just also
talked to other people on social

677
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,360
media.
Where is a couple of things.

678
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,760
Some people just kind of do like
the pain management when they're

679
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,760
able to have their meds and if
they run out early or the

680
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,640
doctors reducing, then they kind
of compensate with kratom,

681
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,240
almost like kratom for
breakthrough.

682
00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:25,960
So some people seem to do fine.
I'm like really, because they,

683
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,880
they always tell us like one or
the other that they hit the same

684
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,120
receptors and that they'll
cancel each other out.

685
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,960
But I've talked to people where
it doesn't cancel them out.

686
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,600
Let me tell you this.
So, and this is really weird,

687
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,000
whenever they had me on
methadone and they were trying

688
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,200
out Belbuca, which is insane to
me, I went into precipitative

689
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,760
withdrawal and I did not know
what that was at the time.

690
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,840
I did not know that you could do
that, OK?

691
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,680
The only reason that I found it
out was because the pharmacist

692
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:58,040
at the pharmacy told me and was
like, you cannot take these meds

693
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,000
together.
They will cancel each other out.

694
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:05,600
OK, so I've always wondered is,
but see, I didn't know that at

695
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:10,680
the time and I know that I have
taken kratom like for a

696
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,600
breakthrough when I had pain
meds at the very end, you know,

697
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,120
because I wasn't medicated
enough, they cut me down from

698
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,080
120 milligrams to like 50 right
off the bat.

699
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,720
So I know I was taking it for a
breakthrough before I knew that

700
00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:26,080
it was supposed to do that.
And I don't remember having a

701
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:27,880
problem at all.
I don't remember.

702
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,160
I think it worked fine for me,
but I I didn't know that at the

703
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,360
time and I haven't been able to
test it out, so I didn't want to

704
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,200
mention it.
How many?

705
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,600
Hours in between, like between a
pain Med, one of your pain meds,

706
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,000
and then the kratom.
Yeah, it was, at least.

707
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:47,000
Three at least before and like
now that's another thing is I

708
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,840
don't take like whenever I take
my kratom, I take my kratom.

709
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,240
I don't sleep.
So I take it first thing in the

710
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:57,560
morning and like I think it's 4
tablets is 1g.

711
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,360
So I normally take them four at
a time.

712
00:37:59,720 --> 00:38:03,400
So I'll start with four and then
if I'm still hurting in an hour,

713
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,160
I will wait one more hour and
take four more.

714
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,480
But I only dose until about 1:00
PM, and then I don't take any

715
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,720
more the rest of the day.
And I don't know if I should be

716
00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:16,360
taking it overnight, but I've
tried it before and I didn't

717
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,800
really notice the difference,
you know, I just felt like the

718
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,200
first dosage of the day got me
pretty good and I was good until

719
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,680
the next day.
So yeah, I mean.

720
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,400
It's trial and error and
figuring it out, you know, and

721
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,560
everybody's different with the
amount they take and what works

722
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,360
for their pain.
And some people do stop earlier

723
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,800
in the day because they don't
want to take it in the evening.

724
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:38,120
You know, there's so many
variables with this.

725
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,240
So many times people will see me
on social media and say, oh, I

726
00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:42,600
have degenerative this disease
too.

727
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,200
Tell me what you take how much a
kind and they you're like no,

728
00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:48,520
no.
No, when I do I.

729
00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:51,280
Will and it not.
The thing you gotta experiment.

730
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,880
But that's it.
It's just.

731
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,120
Trial and error and figuring out
what works for you, Well, that

732
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,200
was the thing.
Is I started with the white

733
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,560
strain 1st and it was not what I
needed.

734
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,840
It was not where I needed to go.
And I can't remember, I think it

735
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:08,320
was, I can't remember which one
it was.

736
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,440
But there whichever strain I
started with was on the opposite

737
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,600
end of the spectrum that I
needed to be on.

738
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:18,600
So once I found one, and I'll
say this, if you think you find

739
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:23,880
one, always get two more because
you don't know if maybe that was

740
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:25,600
just the beginning of the one
that works.

741
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,400
I thought I found a really good
one and two months later they

742
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,480
were out of it and I had to
order something else.

743
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,360
And that one worked better.
And I, I switch up between 3:00

744
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,520
every month.
You know, I'll get 2 one month

745
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,720
and then get the third one and
then kind of rotate between

746
00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:44,560
those to keep it different.
So and you have to just try.

747
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,040
You have to just try.
And when people are new and

748
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,240
they're asking me, you know, I
always, you know, like I'm not a

749
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:51,480
medical professional.
I can just share my personal

750
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,400
experience and what people
advise me to do in the

751
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,320
beginning, which is what I did.
And what I tell others is get

752
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,120
the three main colors, the red,
the white and the green, and try

753
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,520
them one at a time and see how
you do.

754
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:04,120
And you don't know until you
try.

755
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,000
And everybody's affected
differently.

756
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,560
And I found for me, the white,
the white makes me too jittery,

757
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:10,680
is too energetic for me.
That was me.

758
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,720
The Reds don't do much.
For my pain, but the greens for

759
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:16,360
me have been magic.
It's like it helps my pain.

760
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:17,800
It gives me a little boost of
energy.

761
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,320
It's like it's the one that
works best for me.

762
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,240
So I stick with those and I'm
always rotating different

763
00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:25,360
vendors.
But the key is to get really

764
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:29,120
good quality kratom from a good
online vendor.

765
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,880
It's best to not buy them at
smoke shops because they not

766
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,800
always but they typically have
lower quality and they're not

767
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,000
always lab tested and it's going
to cost more as a smoke shop

768
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:39,120
too.
Well and it's so much more.

769
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,840
Expensive there and we need to
mention too, because a lot of

770
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,360
people come in my comments
talking about 70 H That is not

771
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:49,640
the same thing.
It is so dangerous.

772
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,520
And when they start getting into
that type crap, you are getting

773
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,640
into dangerous stuff because
there are additives and other

774
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,960
things in there that's not safe.
Yeah, the researchers.

775
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:02,480
Have been sounding the alarm on
this they're saying it's not

776
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,920
truly kratom.
What's interesting is you got

777
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,360
the whole leaf powder, which is
what we take, right, which is

778
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,360
just, it's the plan.
Then you have the X tracks where

779
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:15,200
I mean, you manufacturer will
take the one alkaloid out of out

780
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,400
of the plant and synthesize it
to make it more potent.

781
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,880
And so that's your extract.
So they're stronger and and you

782
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,280
got to be a lot more careful
with those and I stay away from

783
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:25,720
those.
Then you got the seven, OH,

784
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,960
where they take the extract
from, you know, they take an

785
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,240
extract of an extract and then
synthesize it again.

786
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,520
And they're putting compounds
into it that the researchers

787
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,920
can't even identify.
So there's things in this of no

788
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,040
H products.
The researchers have no idea

789
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,600
what these compounds are.
But anyway, they're way too

790
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,520
strong.
And it's not technically kratom

791
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,600
at this point.
And the smoke shops are selling

792
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,720
them and they're making the
killing and people are talking

793
00:41:51,720 --> 00:41:54,000
about how they're, they're
addictive.

794
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,280
And I'm not surprised.
But it's not kratom.

795
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,600
No, it's not.
And listen, that is the stuff

796
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,040
that they should be sounding the
alarm about because I could see

797
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,280
that stuff being much more
addictive, much more dangerous.

798
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,840
And if we're talking about kids
experimenting, that's the stuff

799
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:11,760
that you want to keep them away
from.

800
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,800
And I think that it speaks
volumes though, that we as

801
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,760
kratom users are like, wait,
this is not the kind that you

802
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:20,360
need.
Go low and slow.

803
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,240
Make sure you take a tolerance
break.

804
00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:26,840
Like, we all have these
behaviors that we have adapted

805
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,960
good because we know that they
work and they still want to

806
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,480
label us as users.
You know what I mean?

807
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:38,560
And I wish that we could just
stop with the labels and realize

808
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,800
that everyone needs something
different to survive.

809
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,680
And let's not even talk about
this, Madeline.

810
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,240
I am neurodivergent, I have
ADHD, and I'm also on the

811
00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:49,760
spectrum.
Kratom also helps a little bit

812
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,360
with those symptoms.
It helps with my anxiety just a

813
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,200
little bit.
It helps especially because I

814
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,080
don't sleep my cognitive
function, I feel like sometimes

815
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:00,960
it helps me focus a little bit
more.

816
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:05,600
And we don't even talk about the
neurodivergent symptoms because

817
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:07,760
we can't even think about
getting those treated.

818
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,080
We can't get our pain treated,
you know what I mean?

819
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,480
So.
I feel like a lot of.

820
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,160
People don't realize that we are
not only not getting pain

821
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,360
management, we're not getting
mental management, we're not

822
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:23,040
getting anything treated.
So it's frustrating when people

823
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,360
want to label us and label the
few tiny little things.

824
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,960
It's like saying that ibuprofen
is killing people and ibuprofen

825
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,200
is killing people.
Let's be honest, ibuprofen and

826
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,280
Tylenol are, and they're not
saying a word about it.

827
00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:38,880
No, because.
It's big business and you know

828
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:44,320
anything that's big business and
or big pharma always swept under

829
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,880
the rug, which is said.
Let's be honest, they are not

830
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,600
providing treatment and they're
lining their pockets with our

831
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,000
money right now.
You know, of course they don't

832
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,320
want that revenue stream to
stop.

833
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,400
So I'm so glad that you're
getting the word out that the

834
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:01,880
ones of us that are suffering
that have been abandoned because

835
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,920
there's so many of us, freedom
is our last lifeline.

836
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,760
And if they remove that brick
from our lives, I don't know

837
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:09,600
what we're going to do.
You know what I mean?

838
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:11,920
Yeah, and as.
A matter of fact, you know, you

839
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,520
said you're in North Carolina
recently, there was a county

840
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,560
commissioner that wanted to
bring a band bill not just to

841
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:20,280
the county, but to the whole
state.

842
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:24,640
So many of us, many of us
advocates reached out and we

843
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:29,080
contacted him and the other
commissioners and he responded

844
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,880
back and gave out his phone
number to all of us and said,

845
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:33,280
call me if you'd like, let's
talk.

846
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,840
So some of us got on a
conference call with him and

847
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,320
talked to him.
Other advocates in North

848
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,680
Carolina talked with him.
He was very receptive to hearing

849
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,240
our stories about freedom.
He was only hearing negative

850
00:44:43,240 --> 00:44:45,360
stuff.
He got to hear us share our

851
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,920
personal positive experience and
it completely changed his

852
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,000
perspective.
So it doesn't, it doesn't look

853
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,040
like it's going to be as much of
an issue now in North Carolina,

854
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,920
but listen.
If that happens again and you

855
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,360
need anybody, because I didn't
hear about this one, let me know

856
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:05,120
because it that's what happens.
And listen in their defense, in

857
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,360
these people's defense, of
course they're going to want to

858
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,960
do something if people are
talking about a drug being sold

859
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,640
at the gas stations, OK, Because
that's the only side that

860
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,320
they're getting.
But I am so appreciative that he

861
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,920
was willing to listen and like
the guy that Claudia had that

862
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,840
had Claudia on his podcast, the
one that was the attorney that

863
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:28,360
was suing the opiate
manufacturers, that was great

864
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,040
too.
And I feel like they're finally

865
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,520
starting to be like, oh, wait,
the pendulum might have swung a

866
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,120
little too far the other way.
We may need to start thinking

867
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,480
about this.
But yeah, I have family that I

868
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:42,040
have several family members that
are fighting cancer.

869
00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:44,480
My grandmother just had a hip
replacement.

870
00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:47,960
They are having to ration what
tiny bit of pain meds they get.

871
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:52,720
And when I tell you, watching
your elderly family recuperate

872
00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:56,680
from major surgery and not want
to take their pain meds until

873
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,120
they're at crisis level because
they know they can't get

874
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:01,200
anymore.
We need change.

875
00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:04,600
And these people were medical
professionals in their prime.

876
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:06,800
They helped people.
They can't believe what's

877
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,280
happening.
And every single thing that we

878
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,920
have to help us, Graham
included, they're trying to take

879
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,400
off the market.
You know, and I just what's

880
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,440
next?
I'm hoping RMK will listen to

881
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,720
us.
I hope so, I hope.

882
00:46:19,720 --> 00:46:23,760
So because it's gotten so bad
over the years and it just keeps

883
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,800
getting worse.
And I feel so bad for everybody

884
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,600
that's still in the pain
management community because

885
00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:34,480
they're just not prescribing the
way they used to and people are

886
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,640
just analyzing themselves
because they just feel so

887
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:39,760
hopeless and it's, it's just
terrible.

888
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:41,960
It's like, well, there's a plant
that might help.

889
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,080
That's why I'm always putting
the word out because in my 9

890
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,600
years of pain management, Casey,
I never heard about kratom.

891
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,920
Never, never.
Like I wish, I wish I had

892
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,720
somehow heard about it because I
would have loved to learn about

893
00:46:54,720 --> 00:46:56,760
it.
Empower myself and fired my pain

894
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,000
management doctor.
That's what I would have liked.

895
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,360
And so people are, yeah, that's,
that's what, that's what needs

896
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,320
to happen.
And like, people are finding my

897
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,320
podcasts, they're finding my Tik
Toks and learning about it in

898
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,200
the pain community.
And I, I've already helped

899
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,000
several different people that
have gone on to fire their pain

900
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,400
management doctor because they
discovered Kratos.

901
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:17,200
Yeah.
And we need more of that.

902
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,560
That's why we need to like,
share our stories and help

903
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:21,400
spread the word so more people
know.

904
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,000
Here's an alternative.
It might help, it might not.

905
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:25,240
Yes.
Well, and the.

906
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,080
Other thing is it's very what
she said there, fire my pain

907
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,560
management doctor.
I want everyone that listens to

908
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,840
this to realize we do not want
to go to pain management.

909
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:38,880
It is you are stripped of your
dignity and I don't care if

910
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,160
we're talking about pain
management now versus pain

911
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,280
management 20 years ago.
I've been the whole time.

912
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,400
They've never been great.
They've always treated you like

913
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,040
you're a criminal and they're
looking for something to find.

914
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,280
It's much worse now to the point
that I won't step foot in there

915
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,200
because I don't want to be
treated like I'm a felon.

916
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,080
But we don't want to go there.
If we can find something that

917
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,320
will work outside of that, we
will not go.

918
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,800
We don't want to go.
You know, it's not fun.

919
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,280
What do I take charge of?
Our health care ourselves.

920
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,200
And that's, you know, me being
dropped from pain management,

921
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:14,000
while it was a scary thing to go
through and I hate for anybody

922
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,440
to have to go through what I
went through, it became this

923
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,800
blessing in disguise.
Didn't realize it at the time,

924
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:23,000
but like, I have spent almost 6,
basically six years now where I

925
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:24,640
don't have to go the doctor all
the time.

926
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:25,960
I don't have to pee in a couple
all the time.

927
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,960
I don't have to go to the
pharmacy to fill it for them to

928
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:34,520
profile me and be like, no, you
know, like people don't believe

929
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:38,560
that this this happens.
I've I've been like so many

930
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,080
times where the pharmacy would
say, oh, we're out or when you

931
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:42,120
going to get it?
We don't know.

932
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:43,440
But I'm like, what do you mean
you don't know?

933
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,560
How about if?
You notice a difference between

934
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,040
brands because you've been
getting a certain brand every

935
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:50,720
month.
God forbid you mentioned that

936
00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:54,040
I've had a pharmacy blacklist me
and won't let me come back

937
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:56,960
because they said that I was.
They basically thought I was a

938
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,080
drug seeking because I was
requesting a specific brand of

939
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:01,960
medicine.
It just so happened it worked

940
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:02,840
better.
OK.

941
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:09,400
And the other part too, is I
don't think people realize that

942
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,840
when we're talking about pain
management, there is no part in

943
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,360
any of that process that is
pleasant.

944
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,840
We have to think about our
medicine 24/7, and they make you

945
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,400
think about your medicine 24/7.
How many hours?

946
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,160
How many pills do I have?
Did I take my medicine on time?

947
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:28,840
And then they're like, you're
thinking about your medicine too

948
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:29,800
much.
You know what I mean?

949
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,680
And I just always felt like it
was like a catch 22.

950
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,080
You were wrong no matter what
you did.

951
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,240
Damned if you do, damned if you
don't, you know?

952
00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:41,840
And we don't want to go to pain
management and they don't want

953
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:43,080
you there.
Let's be honest.

954
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,280
Pain management doesn't want you
there either.

955
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:49,200
So no, I mean you're lining.
Their pockets, but they just

956
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,200
don't treat you very well.
Wow, this is such a great

957
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,400
conversation.
One thing I want to go back to

958
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:58,240
real quick, going back to when
you're trying kratom and you're,

959
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:00,040
you know, working on your dose
and stuff.

960
00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:02,200
What I find not to say
specifically with your

961
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,120
situation, what I find with a
lot of people that tell me

962
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,560
they're using kratom and it is,
it's okay.

963
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:09,800
It helps her pain, but not as
well as her opioids.

964
00:50:10,240 --> 00:50:13,240
Many times people I talk to, it
just turns out they just weren't

965
00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:16,760
taking enough of it, that
sometimes it's like, oh, they

966
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,200
take a little bit more.
There's a a friend of mine in

967
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,360
our community who had been using
kratom I think for a year or so,

968
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,640
maybe longer, I don't remember
exactly how long.

969
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:28,280
And it worked OK.
And then he just felt like, oh,

970
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,840
I shouldn't take too much.
But then he'd hear us talk about

971
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,560
keep going until you find where
you get that.

972
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:37,320
For me personally, if I like, I
know when I can't take any more.

973
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:41,160
Like for me right now is 2
teaspoons. 2 teaspoons every six

974
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,000
hours is magic for me.
I don't have any.

975
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,520
I mean, I have other pains, of
course, I'm not young.

976
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:50,200
I'm pretty old now.
So I get but my main pains, my

977
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:53,120
degenerative disc disease that
if it wasn't for some

978
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:56,040
intervention, I'd be laid up in
bed and not be able to function

979
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,440
in life at all.
It brings my pain level down to

980
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,040
a 0.
But it was for for me personally

981
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,560
to figure out that how much can
I take?

982
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,400
So you know that it's not too
much where I get nauseous and

983
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:08,440
throw up because that's when you
know, you've taken too much.

984
00:51:08,720 --> 00:51:11,560
Yes, but enough where I'm
getting some relief.

985
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:13,840
And I don't know if it's like
this for everybody, but some

986
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:17,160
people it seems like they're
under dosing for whatever

987
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:18,680
reason.
This, it's been a variety of

988
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,480
reasons, I've heard people say.
But once they just try a little

989
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:25,120
bit more, it's like, Oh, well,
I'll tell you this.

990
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,480
I'll experiment over the next
couple weeks and see because I

991
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,040
haven't, I'll be honest with
you, I haven't really messed

992
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:34,960
with my dose over the past
couple months because I just,

993
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:37,560
you know how it is, you think it
works and you just stay with it.

994
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,200
You know what I mean?
But I've, I've been on a

995
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:44,680
tolerance break for a week now,
so I will try and play around

996
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:46,400
with it and see if I notice a
difference.

997
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,760
I tried green one time and I
wasn't impressed.

998
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:53,440
It might have been the specific
type of green that I tried, so I

999
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,200
will try that one too and see if
I notice any kind of a

1000
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,560
difference just because I've
tried all three of them and I

1001
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:02,240
had the same reaction that you
did with the white.

1002
00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:04,560
I was not.
It gave me the jitters almost.

1003
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,800
It was like, yeah, I don't
describe it.

1004
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:10,840
It can take some.
Trial and error for sure.

1005
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:12,600
And what's helpful is to keep a
journal.

1006
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:15,000
Yeah, it's helpful to keep a
journal so you can kind of keep

1007
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,280
track of what you're taking and
how much and, and just being

1008
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,520
able to see like what's working
and what's not.

1009
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,800
Yeah.
I use an app called human and it

1010
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,200
keeps up with like it has
symptoms and stuff in there but

1011
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,960
you can also put your dosage in
time and because I'm so ADHD if

1012
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,080
it's paper I'll lose it you know
so.

1013
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:39,200
Where it doesn't exist.
But and I may be messaging you

1014
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,480
with some questions here that I
have just about personal

1015
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:46,360
experience so also.
Be sure to join my Kratom Real

1016
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,880
Talk community because it's also
a great place to connect further

1017
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:53,240
with me, separate from social
media, but also to ask questions

1018
00:52:53,240 --> 00:52:55,880
to our community as well.
It's really a great place.

1019
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:57,600
Like it's kind of like a
Facebook group, but I think

1020
00:52:57,600 --> 00:52:59,960
better.
So kratomrealtalk.com.

1021
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:04,480
So it's something I started a
year ago after TikTok deleted my

1022
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:06,560
account one day because, you
know, they don't like us talking

1023
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:08,840
about kratom and Oh my gosh,
yes.

1024
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,360
It happens.
To many of us kratom advocates

1025
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,400
and I was warned by other
advocates, oh, you'll, you know

1026
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,080
don't be surprised if one day
TikTok deletes your account and

1027
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:20,760
and you'll have to start over so
not only do I start over and

1028
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:23,600
that's my current account, but
that same day it's like I'm

1029
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:26,680
going to start an online
community, a separate place

1030
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,640
that's not driven by social
media without the algorithm

1031
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:33,120
where I can control it and I've
been in digital marketing for 29

1032
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:36,520
years so I know a lot about
these things So I, I started I

1033
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:39,400
started kratom realtalk.com and
it's like it's just a nice

1034
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:41,960
little place where we can have
conversations and not worry

1035
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:45,880
about censorship or and all that
negativity we see on social

1036
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:47,440
media.
So it's in addition to our

1037
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:50,440
social media, but just a nice
little place where we can also

1038
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:54,600
talk with other fellow kratom
consumers, But you might, you

1039
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,920
know, also connect with some
other fellow pain patients in

1040
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:01,520
there.
That for sure as well.

1041
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:03,360
This has been such a great
conversation.

1042
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:05,160
Casey, I have one last question
for you.

1043
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,440
Yeah, Knowing everything you
know now about kratom, if you

1044
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:11,600
were helping somebody just get
started, what kind of advice

1045
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:13,560
would you get them?
I would definitely.

1046
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:17,520
Say make sure that you go low
and slow, make sure that you eat

1047
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:20,760
and do self-care.
Make sure that you're doing

1048
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:26,320
yourself care during and you're
also incorporating your regular

1049
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:30,520
tools and your toolbox that you
are already using in addition to

1050
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,360
so that you can get a really
good reading of how it's working

1051
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:35,280
for you.
Because a lot of people that I

1052
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:39,160
know stop like other therapies
while they try kratom to see how

1053
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,360
it works.
In my experience, you need to

1054
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:43,880
make sure that you're doing
everything that you can to keep

1055
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,680
your pain level down in addition
to it, but low and slow and

1056
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:50,000
don't get frustrated.
Yeah, that's.

1057
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,240
Such great advice.
This has been such an awesome

1058
00:54:52,240 --> 00:54:53,960
conversation.
I'm so glad you came on the

1059
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:55,920
podcast today.
Thank you so much for.

1060
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:58,040
Having me and thank you so much
for all you're doing.

1061
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:01,000
If if you need anybody to give
their story for something in the

1062
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,480
future, please reach out.
Thank you so much, Madeline.

1063
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:09,320
Thank you.
Thank you for listening.

1064
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:13,160
You can get more information at
kratomstoriespodcast.com,

1065
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,560
including show notes from this
episode.